Enough points to guarantee promotion....

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Beesa, Oct 20, 2010.

  1. Beesa

    Beesa Member

    If your band had enough points to guarantee promotion and so didn't need to compete at the Regional/Area Contest, what would you do?

    Go along and compete anyway for the hell of it?
    If your band wasn't going, sign on for another band and help them out?
    Go along to watch for a relaxing time and a few beers?

    (Purely hypothetical just now although in fact the situation has happened in the past)
  2. flash harry

    flash harry Member

    Reasons to go:
    (i) you enjoy playing and want to play as much as you can;
    (ii) you could win the competition and have the honour of representing your region at the National Finals;
    (iii) you enjoy contesting (even with the alleged 'cheating');
    (iv) you enjoy the day with your band/friends as opposed to by yourself;
    (v) you avoid being labelled as disrespectful and arrogant by other competing bands;
    (vi) to play for another band could bar you from re-registering with your own band for 6 months (i.e. the band 'slag' rule);
    (vii) you obtain further 'on stage' experience for the band;
    (viii) you maintain interest within the band - e.g. other players may 'go elsewhere' too (and may not come back!);
    (ix) you see where Paddy Flower puts you on the betting front - possible kiss of death;
    (x) you enjoy what is, for most bands, the most important contest of the year.

    Reasons not to go:
    ....sorry, I've bored myself to death...you probably stopped reading a while ago.

  3. animal.22

    animal.22 Member

    Got to go and play! Simples!!!! :)
  4. Andy_Euph

    Andy_Euph Active Member

    Surely not going to the contest would get you a high mark for non contesting....voiding the band being top of the points table and promotion.

    I'd go and compete hands down, just to show you're justified with being promoted...plus there is always the bar afterwards :)
  5. John_D

    John_D Member

    you say that this has happened in the past, but I would imagine that it is certainly unlikely to happen.

    All it would take to spoil this is a new band (or newly promoted/relegated band) being given average points for the last 2 years and then winning. This could easily leave them with less points than a band that had had 2 good years but then gets 1 point more than last place.

    IMO it's not worth the risk. If a band is interested in promotion they should go and play. Even if you come last you get one point less than the bands who didnt play.
  6. Laserbeam bass

    Laserbeam bass Active Member

    This may well have worked in a smaller region in the past, but there is no way you could do this in an average or larger region.

    There's no guarantee of promotion, and if you didn't contest, and still had the points to go up, any band that finished third would have grounds for an appeal and would probably win. Non Entry is rife in certain areas and sections, but this is due to the lack of players, or lack of ability in a band. If a band withdraws, it usually does it as a last resort, and with a lot of deliberation.

    As it is a hypothetcial question here is is my view of how it could all pan out.

    One year in a region in a particular section all the bands have a powwow and all decide that the top two bands are the best, and the bottom two bands are the worst, and the ones in between are happy where they are. This could easliy spread in to the section above and below. However, as no one has entered the competition and there is no winner, there is no representative at the national finals.

    The following year the bands from that area, do not receive an invitation to the national finals. This in turn means that they will no longer attend the area contest as their is nothing to be gained from it.

    So begins the dissolution of the banding fraternity.

    In 2050 brass bands attend their own funeral and we all end up writing pieces on Sibelius that are judged via the Internet.
  7. astreet83

    astreet83 Member

    This thread does not make sense...

    Why wouldn't you want to go to the Area to win a chance of playing at the finals? PLUS the CONTEST BEER!!!
  8. euphojim

    euphojim Member

    I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I was always under the impression that promotions and relegations were at the discretion of the relevant Area Committee. If so, a decision not to compete may well give the Committee a reason to overlook a band that might otherwise expect to be promoted.

    A decision not to compete surely raises all sorts of questions in the minds of contest administrators, other bands and even your own players. Even if the maths indicated that a band does not need to compete, I think it would be an extremely risky strategy.
  9. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I've just done a small amount of maths. The only way a band could be guaranteed to stay top of a section containing N bands without competing is if they'd come 1st in the previous two years, and all the other bands had come in the exact reverse order one previous year to the other previous year i.e. for a 10-band section, the table going into the contest would look like:

    2 years back, 1 year back : 2 year total
    1 1 : 2
    2 10 : 12
    3 9 : 12
    4 8 : 12
    5 7 : 12
    6 6 : 12
    7 5 : 12
    8 4 : 12
    9 3 : 12
    10 2 : 12

    A pretty unlikely set-up, I think you'll agree! There'll be a small correction for allowing for multiple bands being promoted, but it won't change the basic implausibility of the idea that this could ever actually happen.
  10. lynchie

    lynchie Active Member

    You'd surely have at least 2 bands who had been promoted or relegated into that section with 11 points for the two years. If one of them wins, they beat you by a point. I can't work out a way this could actually happen.
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Good point, I'd left out promotion and relegation, whoops. However, 11 points from 2 years = a minimum of 12 from 3 years if they win, so they'd tie on 1st place with the band that didn't enter.
  12. John_D

    John_D Member

    This also assumes that the number of bands in the section remains the same. If the number of bands in the section increases in the year that 'the band' chooses to not enter, there is no way that they can be sure of promotion.
  13. AmandaD

    AmandaD Member

    I though if you didn't compete you would get points for last + 1 which would give you 13 and so you'd be relegated ??

  14. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    But last place is 9th place if that band don't enter, so last + 1 = 10 after all...
  15. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    I had a think about this, and I think it's possible in the following situation, but not otherwise. I'm not going to try to calculate all the permutations though, because there's thousands of them.

    All three must be true:
    1. Band in question came last or close three years ago, then first in last two years. One second place might still be ok, depending on other conditions.
    2. Points for other bands fall in convenient way, such that all the remaining bands are new to the section, or, going into the contest, have more points than those bands new to the section. If this is because bands have previously finished on equal points, leading to more than the normal number of bands promoting out, this could contributes to condition 3.
    3. Even before the band in question withdraws, there are fewer bands in the section than in the previous two years.

    Actually, there's probably a point or two extra leeway than that for promotion rather than winning, thinking about it.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  16. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The layout I gave above violates (3) and works...
  17. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    See my edit, Dave. Also, as lynchie says, the bands promoted and relegated in would have 11 points, not 12.

    That said, your layout still works for promotion, as the band would have at least equal points with the band coming second in the contest.
  18. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The edit still doesn't quite cover it - the band will always be top or at worst joint top with one other band in the event that a band new to the section wins the contest.
  19. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    OK, that's a fair point. A reduction in the size of the section is the key way this could happen though, as the chance of getting results like you suggest is miniscule.

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