English nationals+Black Dyke

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by cornetshell, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. cornetshell

    cornetshell Member

    At the risk of opening HUGE can of worms, just wondered what peoples views are on the rules being changes at the english nationals with dyke playing?

    "The inaugural contest did in fact have 14 bands competing, although last year with the late acceptance of the invitation to compete from Grimethorpe, the contest had expanded in number to 15... The rules have changed to allow for 16 bands to compete next year... We have no plans however to increase this number further in subsequent years." 4BR

    ...should prove interesting though as it does give many other bands a chance to try and give the "untouchables" a run for their money....!

    Nothing like healthy competition eh? ;)
  2. zak

    zak Member

    Untouchables???? Not sure I agree with that description, would have thought Grimey would better warrant that description given their contest form of late. Dyke are a great band but do not stand head and shoulders above others like they used to do in the 80/90's.

    It's much more a level playing field now, and quite a few bands can win on the day.
  3. Masterblaster jnr

    Masterblaster jnr Active Member

    for once i agree with you, Yorkshire area 07 a good example, Hepworth, Brighouse, Carlton Main and hatfield all in top 5
  4. Certainly not untouchable - a great band but Grimethorpe have the winning mix at the moment. Seems wherever Kevin Crockford and Allan Withington go they have a winner! Like at Faireys a few years ago...

    Back on subject.. The English Nationals was already a great contest but the inclusion of another top ranked band will surely make it one of the highest rated contests through-out the banding year, which is a great thing for English banding!
  5. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    I may be wrong, and I may be reading your post wrongly, but I'm fairly sure the rules weren't changed so that Dyke could attend. The numbers allowed to compete was just changed.

  6. Darth_Tuba

    Darth_Tuba Active Member

    That's what I thought. Hopefully the numbers won't increase any further though, it's nice to have a contest that isn't 20 bands long! Nice to see the organisers have done something about the ticket prices and free entry for players after last year. Also, no gala concert so some people may stop round longer for results etc. :)
  7. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    That may be technically correct, but expanding the numbers does ensure that no band which has accepted an invitation in previous years could feel hard done by if they missed out on an invitation because Dyke and Grimethorpe are taking part. I think anything which raises the standard of the bands taking part has got to be a good thing, and the numbers are still quite manageable, especially with the dropping of the concert.
  8. Bass Man

    Bass Man Active Member

    Definately. Surely we should look at Dykes acceptance as a good thing, which shows that the English Nationals is right up there amongst the best contests.
  9. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    The invitation criteria are quite clear and, provided the rankings are accurately calculated (so far as they can be anyway ;)), then no band can have cause for complaint that they do not receive an invite. Nobody is guaranteed an invite although the highest ranked bands are always likely to get an invite due to the sheer number of their points in the ranking system. However, the principle is that you must win the area or be high enough in the rankings otherwise you don't get an invite. How can you feel hard done by on that basis? The BFBB have no say over who wins the area or who is placed where in the rankings.

    I agree about the profile of the contest being raised. I recall I said last year about Grimethorpe's entry that they should have accepted at the outset but overall it was great that they were invited as it raised the profile of the contest. This contest can now become the contest that perhaps the All England Masters could/ should have become.

  10. ian perks

    ian perks Active Member

    Youve just got to fancy Black Dyke to win this one,what a great band they are and on many times well above anyone else at a contest never discount them at any cost !!!!!
  11. Bass Man

    Bass Man Active Member

    The same could be said of other bands in the competition. Grimethorpe or Fodens perhaps? I don't think it's a done deal just because Black Dyke are going.
  12. zak

    zak Member

    What a sweeping statement to make, I could say exactly the same of a few other bands who have had outstanding contest performances clearly well above others. I am not discounting them just stating that they are not head and shoulders above all the others like they used to be, a few different bands can win any contest on the day.

    Why have you got to fancy them to win this one in particular? Didn't you fancy them to win the open or the nationals this year then??? ;)

    Obviously a Dyke supporter who listens with his eyes and heart :biggrin:
  13. simonbassbone

    simonbassbone Member

    Surely your not suggesting there's another way to listen at a contest. Certainly don't listen to all the bands with an open mind whoever they are.
  14. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I think having Dyke is a boost that helps finalizes the credibility of the contest...however, I think Grimethorpe's addition the year before helped the credibility and Fodens, Leyland, Hepworth, etc... helped the first year.

    Needless to say one band does not make the contest. In fact, there are many fine bands that competed the first few years that made the contest credible.

    I'm not convinced that now all of the sudden, Dyke will win just because they are in it.

    I would, however, like to see it go back to 14 bands...as I personally feel that is a reasonable number of bands to avoid the mass exodus there typically is for pub breaks at the Open and Albert.
  15. midwalesman

    midwalesman Member

    Everyone, including myself welcomes the best bands in all the top ranking competitons, it would certainly be nice to see the Black Dyke band play in more contests like most if not all other top section bands.

    It is interesting, though probably predictable and logical (I suppose), that they (grouping Grimethorpe and Black Dyke Bands) now enter the contest many years later after the qualification for the Europeans has now changed from London to the English Nationals event.

    My question would be, if the qualification for the Europeans was still at the British Championships in London, would they have changed their contesting policy as they have done?

    This is not a criticism but if the two biggest names are needed to legitimise a contest, as some people on here believe, then the All England Masters (as it was) and Brass in Concert were not as legitimate (in degree) as the other contests. In addition the Yorkshire area contest is more legitmate or prestigious (terms are probably interchangable) than all the other areas, which it may or may not be.

    If we look at the rankings, and sorry for any unkind comments here, but the addition of Black Dyke and Grimethorpe to contests seem to add ranking points to the events (excluding Whit Friday). This again seems to add false legitimacy to contest, is a contest where Fodens, Leyland, Brighouse and Rastrick, Desford, Sellers (will be sadly missed) and Hepworth not a great evenly-ish balanced event deserving of a high degree of legitimacy.

    Also, we make comments that we should try and promote the flagship events of the movement and yet one of these so called events requires the European qualification to change (possibly) the two biggest names in banding's contesting policy. Again this is not a criticism, but historical facts seem to support my opinion. If the All England Masters had gained the Euro qualification 5 years ago would the aforementioned bands have stayed away from that contest?? So if the best bands are there to promote the movement, the question should be, do you need to bribe the best bands to compete??

    As an individual I look forward to the competition, though as I said, it seems convenient that now the European qualifications are at the new(-ish) there is an upsurge in interest. As you can tell it both annoys and saddens me, and from talking to many other people in the movement, that an event requires Black Dyke or Grimethorpe to legitmise a contest as being great or just good.

    My thoughts anyway, make of them what you wish, with or without their participation it would have been a keenly contested event.
  16. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    To Midwalesman

    As far as my opinion is concerned I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The best events generally are the ones that have the best bands. Therefore if Brighouse chose not to enter a certain contest then (as they are in prime form at the mo and historically one of the 'big named bands' for want of a better definition) that contest would be the poorer for their omission.

    As such the Yorkshire area does not have Fodens, Fairey, Leyland, Desford or a-n-other-great-band. As such, although intriguing and exciting, I do not see it as a contest in the same league as say The Nationals or The Open.

    In my opinion, that is why the Open is seen as the best contest as it contains what is perceived to be the best bands. The Nationals cannot necessarily allow all of the (perceived) best bands from Yorkshire or even the North West to go through (depending upon how many bands get a bye from their result at the Nationals the year before).

    If you want to have a Champion Band of England then surely you must have the best bands in England competing otherwise how can the event be seen as great? Is a golf tournament great if Tiger Woods, Ernie Els et al always shun it? The Coca Cola cup sees the best football teams put out their second string teams - at least until the final. That is perhaps why that is not seen as such a prizeworthy trophy.

    There will never be a completely foolproof invitation system but the present one is not that bad in my opinion.


  17. Morghoven

    Morghoven Member

    Many years? That seems a little harsh given that I think this will be only the third time (no doubt someone will quickly correct me if I'm wrong!) that this incarnation of the English National Championships has been competed for. Two years doesn't really qualify as "many" in anyone's book.

    And my question in reply is - who cares? You can only play the game that you are presented with. Like all bands, Dyke and Grimey prioritise their workloads in order to arrange their diaries, and the competition that offers qualification for the Euros is naturally going to be fairly high on the list; higher than a contest without that incentive. What's wrong with that?

    I have to say I never quite worked out what you're actually getting at. In one place you seem to say that the presence of these bands is needed to add prestige to a competition, and in another you then complain that the banding world is seeing the contest as more prestigious now that more of the top bands are competing there. That's how it seems to me in any case...
  18. Surely the acceptance of Dyke to compete gives this fantastic contest a much needed financial shot in the arm - as anyone who has seen them at the areas / finals / any other contest will testify (I wish I knew of another band that could fill a contest hall like they do).
    Also, it will give this contest a "higher profile".......

    Andy - my mate plays percussion for 'em!!!!!
  19. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    I don't doubt it would have been keenly contested, however, Grimey and Dyke are perceived as being the 2 best bands in the the country (in a set test situation), so any high profile contest that does not have their inclusion will raise the usual 'well Dyke and Grimey weren't there' comments, just the same as if B & R were missing. If this contest is going to be perceived as being the contest where winning means being able to claim being best band in England, all of England's top bands need to be there.

    As far as I'm concerned, you don't really need both the Masters and the English Champs in the calendar. Now that it seems that all of the best bands are making sure they're at the English Nationals, I think the Masters will become a secondary event.
  20. DeafeningRoar

    DeafeningRoar Member

    On the contrary, if the English National were moved to the RAH (perhaps in October!) why the need for the current RAH British Championship?...aside from tradition perhaps!

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