English Nationals 2012

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Stracathro, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. Stracathro

    Stracathro Member


    Line-up confirmed for this event. Anyone know why B&R not attending? Seem to recall they've skipped this contest before. Would have thought they would relish a shot at the European Championships.
  2. davidquinlan

    davidquinlan Member

    No L&SC band either, should there be representatives from all areas?
  3. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    I would guess that if the organisers got as far down as us for invites, Redbridge must have also received an invite as they're above us in the rankings.
  4. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    No West of England band either...
  5. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member

    Interesting line up considering that invites are meant to be given out in a certain order....
  6. cockaigne

    cockaigne Member

    I realise this contest is quite distinct from the Kapitol Regional/National Championships - but to not have any bands from two of the largest* English regions seems a bit, erm, unbalanced.

    * - in terms of numbers of bands. The top three are, I think, Midlands, West of England, London & Southern Counties.
  7. jezza23361

    jezza23361 Member

    Redbridge did not receive an invite this year or last year - we have been previously as Area winners but saw the contest as a step too far after Shield and Masters in May. If we did (somehow) win and qualify for Europe we couldn't afford to go anyway so a bit pointless in all honestly.

  8. mikey.smithy

    mikey.smithy Member

    You arent supposed to be able to work out how the invites are given.... they change the rules every year it seems!!! We were 2nd reserve this year after Grimethorpe and B&R declined.

    Virtuosi GUS
  9. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member

    This year we were next in line after you at GUS Mike, but didn't receive an invite
  10. mikey.smithy

    mikey.smithy Member

    In which case i guess you are questioning why one band imparticular perhaps has an invite and you don't. Again it's never clear because they pick the top ten bands from the 4BR rankings at a particular point in time (April last year i seem to remember). Of course, what with the 4BR ranking that everybody holds so dear being updated very infrequently these days (which has become a farce with no tranparency and no credibility for determining contst line ups in my opinion) and no option to look back retrospectively at where your position was at a certain point, its almost impossible to work out who was where when they decided on the line up and reserves.......
  11. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member


    There's a link to the original article posted on 4br. Said band has never been ranked above us, and Bayerd said his band were invited, which, correct me if i'm wrong is Wingates? I think, so strange that both bands have been invited, one accepting, one not, and we don't even get an invite. Perhaps our band room is in the wrong area.

    (These aren't thoughts of the Flowers band, or management or anyone else involved with the running of the band, solely my own opinions)
  12. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    So, if I understand correctly, a ticket to the European Championships is based on an invitation contest? Shall I state the bleedin' obvious or not? No wonder I'm getting more and more despondent with brass band contests organisers.
  13. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member

    Correct, an invitation which is based on 4barsrest rankings, which to be fair, are dubious at best.
  14. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    Yes that's correct. We were asked about a month to 6 weeks ago. We declined for similar reasons to what Jezza has written above. I must admit, given our position, I was surprised to get the invite in the first place and upon reading the original article Pem received one above Flowers?...
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2012
  15. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member

    As far as i understand that is correct. As it happens i'm of the same opinion also, what with having Butlins, Yeovil, Areas, Grand Shield, Nationals and potentially the Open depending on what happens at the Grand Shield, adding in the English Nationals, as much as i like masquerade and would love to play it, having 5, potentially 6 contests already, adding the English Nationals doesn't really seem viable, even if you look purely at the cost in conductor fees through the extra rehearsals it really starts to mount up.

    The only issue i have is that we weren't even invited, so am just questioning the integrity of the contest/contest organisers not so much who was invited instead.
  16. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    That's fair enough, my thoughts were 'Blimey, if they've got this far down, there can't be that much interest', but it seems although that's true, they've not necessarily followed their own rules.
  17. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    I'm not saying anything is dubious, but I am saying that there does appear to be a lack of transparency.
  18. Statto

    Statto Member

    Notwithstanding the fact that Flowers may not actually have accepted an invite anyway, I find it astonishing that the 9th best band in England - check out the updated brassstats rankings at the weekend;) - cannot even secure an invite! Add the fact that 3 of the 'top 8' (Brighouse, Grimethorpe and Carlton Main) have turned down their invites, and one of the form bands of 2012 so far can feel rightly aggrieved at the nonsensical qualification system. By any reasonable yardstick, Flowers is one of the top dozen bands in the world for heaven's sake!

    It has to be a fairer system to invite all 6 of the English area champions, plus another 6 (say) from a rankings system.

    For interest only, the brassstats ranking (post areas, to be published on 1 April), would have had invites issued to:

    Brighouse*, Fairey, Foden's, Grimethorpe*, Carlton Main* and GUS

    Three of these * have declined their actual invites it seems so next in the brassstats.com rankings list would be Rothwell, Marsden and Hepworth. Reg Vardy would be next (if required), and so on.

    Incidentally, Paddy's updated rankings post-areas here would have an identical invitation list to mine, with the exception of Reg Vardy being in the 'group of 3' replacements instead of Hepworth (which would be next in line).

    No 4br rankings update in 2012 yet so cannot compare:(

  19. Chris Hicks

    Chris Hicks Member

    Perhaps dubious wasn't the correct phrase at all, but i definitely agree there is a real lack of transparency in their rankings, they never state what any contest is worth, or a single break down of contests for each band, they just leave an air of secrecy around the whole system. But anyway, that's for another thread somewhere
  20. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    "And if you are not Queen....?"

    This all sounds a bit like "we are better than them why not us?"

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