English Championships

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by WhatSharp?, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    Just read on 4BarsRest ( http://www.4barsrest.com/news/default.asp ) that the BFBB are to set up an English Championships, in order to qualify for the EBBA Europeans.

    I agree that this is a good move to structuring the entry qualifications for the English band at the European but what concerns me is that they base the entry for this championship on the top 6 bands in each area plus a further 8 (based on overall ranking). OK this is good, but the area ranking are solely based upon the nationals which are run (ironically enough) by Kapitol / Besson who also have their own rival European Championships....

    Interesting times ahead I feel. If the Kapitol European flops then could this potentially knock on and cause the collapse of the Nationals (Besson withdrawing sponsership, etc)? No problem for the top dogs but it'll devastate the "lower" sections. Once again BFBB looks after the Elite and the others have to fend for themselves.... boy is our movement in a mess.

    Or is this me just being over skeptical....
  2. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    It is interesting how it seems that contesting may be taken from private organisations and started almost afresh in national bodies. There are so many questions tha need answering but this has to be one of the most interesting and turbulent periods that has happened in banding circles in the last 100 years, if not more.

    As for lower section bands, I dont think they are being ignored. With respect the Europeans and the proposed English Championships (in the proposed format) doesn't affect most if any lower section bands. There is nothing to suggest at this stage that the Regionals will falter. If they do, then it will be necessary to consider who or what should replace them. Whether the replacement(s) should be BFBB or BFBB run is a completely separate question. The regional contests do after all belong to Besson. That is the whole problem.

    This has all started over Besson withdrawing their sponsorship. Some people see this as Besson being too powerful and having too much influence on what goes on in the banding movement. The same could be stated about the All England Masters. It is their contest, they can do what they like with it.

    The real acid test is where will all the bands who normally attend the Besson Europeans go next year? Will those bands who have not accepted their invite to the All England Universe Masters (or whatever it is called) now go to the BFBB English Championships? Fun in store methinks.

    Perhaps the answer lies in the question 'Who is BFBB and are they democratically elected?' I'm happy to state my ignorance and that I dont really know a great deal about BFBB.

    There is so much going on it is difficult to know where to start. I get the impression that we will be talking about this for the next few years at least.

    Wait for the 'told you so' comments on 4barsrest. They have been advocating the English bands having their own qualification contest for some time now and will likely approve of the BFBB proposals if not that the BFBB runs such an event itself.

    Just my initial thoughts

  3. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    Just realised that I have really lumped together the European situation and the proposed English Championships. Sorry about that although I get the impression that they are sort of interrelated.

  4. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    Well according to their website the BFBB is "An annually elected Executive Committee" but elected by whom? (note: I'm not having a pop at the BFBB they do do some fine work but I'd be interested to know who elects them).

    If memory serves correct (and I may be wrong here) the BFBB was set up with funding from Besson (then Boosey & Hawkes) to run the Nationals and associated contests, I also note that according to their website (www.bfbb.co.uk) they are still funded by Besson. I'll have to ask my mum next time I see her as she worked for Booseys for a number of years organising the nationals,Europeans and for a number of years running the registry before it was moved to Halifax (at one point the registry was next door to my bedroom :D ). I'm sure she'll give me some more insight into the history.
  5. Rebel Tuba

    Rebel Tuba Member

    Great news from the Federation glad to see them on the bounce up - the first good news since the sad departure of David Stanley.

    It's been some years since I was part of the Federation set-up, howver for your info Mr Whatsharp the Federation representatives are chosen by your local brass Band Association (2 or 3 reps per BBA). I beleive that each area (i.e. Yorkshire BBA, Wessex BBA, N West BBA etc) have a number of votes dependant on member band in that area, so if an area has 10 band = 1 vote, 20 bands = 2 votes etc.. I think that is still the system.

    Each area then has a number of votes to cast for such things as nominations for the executive committee etc.. So WE as band members, of bands, of associations vote on officers on to the Executive Committee. More info can be gained by attending your local association meetings.

    Anyway once again, great news from the Federation. Count on my full support as normal.
  6. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    It sounded to me like they might take the next 8 highest ranked bands from a poll like BBW or 4barsrest, not necessarily the area tables.
  7. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    The BFBB (and Mr Stanley) have an appalling track record, so bad was their organisation of 2002 Lower Section Finals at Torquay that Booseys quite rightly binned them in favour of Kapitol.
    I would love England to have a national body worth supporting , but unfortunately the will of English is not there at present, most of our top bands are obsessed with protecting their own positions and their own petty rivalries.
    Whatsharp is spot on with his view that the BFBB is only interested in the"big boys".
    Until the BFBB involves ALL English Bands in a bold move like this it lacks credibility and smacks of "Politicking".
    Come on BFBB, take on Booseys and set up a rival English Area Championship and watch Booseys crap themselves.
    We need "schism" not another poxy "elite" contest proving nothing!
  8. Rebel Tuba

    Rebel Tuba Member

    What you want is to get a life and may be support the Federation in what they are trying to achieve.


    Their record hasn't been appauling, just the lack of support given by people like yourself is appauling.

    Check the track record of what the Federation have achieved and the resources they have had to do it with. People just like you and me who have a day job and may be 2 or 3 practices a week with their own band.

    To set the record straight the federation are maining about the roots of banding, the lower sections, the youth and money is available for that, not that people like yourself make these type of enquiries.

    For once banders are trying to regain the brass band world from the money makers, for a hobby they love and live.

    For once YOU try and give as much as any one of those on the federation, I doubt if you have the heart or passion to try and revive this great pastime of ours. No wonder we are a dying art form if you represent the voice of the banding public (which I doubt you do).
  9. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    Just visited the BFBB website looking for some idea as to their glorious "track record".....their obviously very modest as there is no mention of anything, perhaps you could enlighten me?
    So pro-active is the BFBB that the News section has no updates for 2004, anyway we still have 2 months to go!
    I tried to find any mention of this proposed "new" euro qualifier...Hmmm Oh dear.
    My only experience of the BFBB is playing at the National finals in 2002,
    We played at 1030 at night to a empty hall and sat and listened to the results at just before 1.00am....and then read in the Bandsman that BFBB thought the delay was caused by the bands playing to slow!
    You may want to place the future of our hobby in the hands of these jokers but they have some serious talking to do to convince me.


    P.S. as to getting a life, I can only dream that my life could ever be as full and exciting as yours obviously is!
  10. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    To correct you - the statement says the top band form each of the 6 english areas, plus another 8 based upon an accredited rankings system, giving a maximum of 14 bands.
    It doesnt state what the ranking system will be - at the moment AFIK BFBB dont have an offical national ranking system for England (or UK) only for each independant area. Only 'offiical' ranking system that I know of is 4bars rest - correct me if wrong. :)

    I couldnt say whether this new contest is a good or bad thing overall - ahthough it seems that the excellent prize money is good and the prospect of profit being used to develop grass roots banding is interesting - although i have no idea what grass roots banding is :D
  11. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Have the bands actually had a say whether they want an English Championship title to compete for ??
  12. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I think if it is the only way to get to the European Championships they may want to compete for the Enlgish Title (That is of course if it will get them to the European Championship they want to go to now that there are two ;) )
  13. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    On the other hand, some of the top bands who have qualified for the Nationals may think that the Finals is enough to decide the top English band of that year. After all, they have qualified (except for the top Nationals prizewinners who automatically have entry for the following year) from an area selection process that have grouped them all together in one competition later in the year. What happens if bands start withdrawing from this new decider?
  14. nickjones

    nickjones Active Member

    It's great news that English Bands have a title they can go for..
    just a few points that need answering....

    1. did the BFBB say only a few months ago there was no need for an English european qualifier competition
    2. why are the winners of the area and a select bunch of other top ranked bands getting an invite? would it not be fair to invite the winner and runner up from each english area? you would get a different lineup every year and stop competitions becoming a one horse race.Also which ranking system is to be used?
    3. reading the Besson and EBBA statements does it look like the EBBA were allowed to run events at the Besson European Championchips? the EBBA just lost the main competition organisation.
    4. Are Kapitol doing a bad job of running the British Nationals? why is there such a distrust of a company which runs the international Brass Summer School and other events?
    5.Why would the EFBB set up a rival area championchip? Is KIRMAT for real?
  15. I think its a great Idea, the more contests the better! It'll be great to have an 'English bands only' contest.
  16. ian perks

    ian perks Active Member

    A great idea for a contest to be set up.

    It will be intresting to see how it goes.:)
  17. IanHeard

    IanHeard Member

    I think I said the "BFBB" should set up a rival English Area Championships.
  18. nickjones

    nickjones Active Member

    Yes they are the one's....still why would we need another set of area competitions?what point would this serve Kirmat?
  19. Statto

    Statto Member

    I think the BFBB should be applauded for this initiative but would it not have been preferable for them to sit down with Messrs Biggs and Franklin and thrash out a compromise whereby the Masters adopts the format now proposed for the 'English'? Are the so-called top bands any more likely to attend the 'English' than the Masters?

    Anyway, for a bit of idle fun, here are the bands that would have qualified for the 'English' each year from 2000 to 2004 (using the BBW rankings where appropriate).

    5 appearances
    Black Dyke, Brighouse, Fairey, Fodens, Grimethorpe, Leyland, YBS

    4 appearances
    Ever Ready (00,01,03,04), Flowers (001,02,03,04)

    3 appearances
    Carlton Main (00,02,04), Desford (01,03,04), Ransome (00,01,03), Sellers (02,03,04), Travelsphere (00,01,02)

    2 appearances
    Aveley & Newham (01,02), Camborne (02,04), Redbridge (03,04)

    1 appearance
    Bodmin (00), First City (00), Fishburn (02), Marple (00), Todmorden (01), Woodfalls (03)

    And those bands in the running to appear at a fictional 2005 'English'?

    qualified (area winners)
    Ever Ready, Leyland, Mount Charles, Redbridge, Travelsphere, YBS

    latest ranking
    Black Dyke, Brighouse, Desford, Fairey, Fodens, Grimethorpe, Ransome, Sellers

  20. iggmeister

    iggmeister Member

    Reading in the BB recently I saw that Philip Sparke had won an award for Music of the Speres. Congrats to him for that.

    The article also teased that he was putting the finishing touches to the English Nationals piece. As Philip is a member of tMP and also 'cos I'm interested, I wondered whether any juicy morsels can be exclusively disclosed about the name of the piece, it's theme/ inspiration, featured soloists, duration etc etc.

    Well Mr S, can you feed us any morsels!?

    Interested Igg

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