Eden - Flutter Tonguing - HELP!

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by welsh_tenor, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. welsh_tenor

    welsh_tenor Member

    Hello All...

    Apologies if this has been covered before but after having blowed through Eden a few times I still cannot get to grips with the flutter tonguing in the horn parts!

    It starts off at FF (which is no problem) with a dim straight to PP over a few beats and then this lasts for approx 20/30 bars -

    I don't seem to be making any progress practicing either... I can always start off fluttering but as soon as I dim, the flutter stops and I cannot start it again without blowing louder!

    Any help or hints would be appreciated....

    1st Horn
    Cwmaman Band
  2. lottie4744

    lottie4744 Member

    I had a section like that and it too caused me a bit of a problem. So I took it to my teacher and he told me to keep the air flow constant and to support the note.
    Hope that helps
  3. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... try flutter-tongueing quietly!
  4. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    You could always try doodle tonguing - particularly at the lower dynamic.
  5. ray_ed

    ray_ed Member

    I gave up trying :oops: :oops:

    can manage it for a few beats but lose it in the end.... lol
  6. SuperHorn

    SuperHorn Member

    Add clothes pegs to your bell-end (instrument may I add) to get the rattling noise needed as it's only an effect.
  7. EflatTenor

    EflatTenor New Member

    Maybe this works for you
    First practise the flutter without your instrument, flutter while keeping your air flow constant (as lottie4744 said), first mf and hold it as long as possible. Try then mp and p, if you can hold your flutter pp as long as you want, try with instrument, descending from middle c to lower f-sharp. Low notes aren't easy to flutter piano, but practise helps (really!:rolleyes: ). Good luck!
    Hope that will help, don't give up trying, (even I managed somehow:p)
  8. persins

    persins Member

    Good advise! Always go back to the basics of what you are doing to try and work out what you are doing wrong. I would start from what you can do (i.e.) loud and gradually bring back the volume while still keeping the note supported and the airflow consistent. You will find that after a bit of work on it, you will be making some sort of progress. It may not be immediate but as with everything else, the practice will pay off!
  9. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    if you can go from ff to pp without fluttering then I guess this is a tongue problem and not just airflow. Obviously a little more air is needed to get through the rapid tongue movement but i would just suggest practicing pp flutters for a minim or so, stopping and starting again over and over again. Then should you loose the flutter on the day at least you know you can restart it without being too obvious
  10. Richard_Brigg

    Richard_Brigg Member

    Have you tried the old 'growling' method, its not flutter tonguing, but can be perfected to sound almost identical. I have problems flutter tonguing, this method works for me.

  11. tromdude

    tromdude New Member

    The key to this is 'support'. Don't ask me how it works, but it does. You can get away without supporting and play pretty much anything, but there are times when you can't survive without it, including sounding nice when high, sounding nice when loud and getting control when soft.

    You can practise pp notes all week, but unless you get into the habit of using abdominal muscles to 'sit' on the air stream like a brick on a set of bagpipes, you'll never get control. No support, and you'll get wobbles, poor tone, difficulty making notes speak, zero projection and flutter-tongue will be dodgy.

    The way to get a feel for 'support' is to do a stage whisper. You know - like the actor who is whispering, but can be heard right at the back of the theatre. Try doing exactly this - the louder the better. Notice how hard your stomach muscles are working?!! Now try playing a note with exactly this feeling - do a really slow dim on a long note. Work harder and harder as you get softer. Aim to make the note sing openly, right to pppp. The air column needs to be wide, not constricted. You are slowing the air down instead of closing the air pipe.

    If you don't support, you close up, and the amount of air drops below that necessary to keep your lips buzzing nicely, and as you've found, the tongue to buzz too.

    I hope that is a help. Please let us know how you get on - it is not easy.
  12. Soppy

    Soppy Member

    Changing track slightly, but I can't flutter tounge at all :( ! I can do it without the mouthpiece there, but as soon as I try to play, I just physically can't!!

    Any ideas? Thanks

    edit: make that clearer. I'm not running out of air pressure etcm I physically can't flutter my tounge - if that makes sense!
  13. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

  14. zak

    zak Member

    Flutter tongueing is flutter tongueing, not double tongueing or "doodle" tongueing or "growling"!!

    The best advise i can give is to look in the Arban Book, lots of good stuff and explanations in there!!!
  15. Soppy

    Soppy Member

    Thanks for that link. I was doing it with the wrong part of my tounge (the tip) hence why I couldn't do it with my mouth closed!
  16. Richard_Brigg

    Richard_Brigg Member

    I agree, however, i don't believe that flutter tongueing can be learnt from a Cornet Method, and offering possible alternatives is, in my opinion, more helpful than merely stating the obvious. Whilst i am more than familiar with the Arban studies, i would be grateful if anyone could point out the arban chapter/exercises that cover the art of flutter tonguing???

  17. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    I'm intrigued. Monsieur Arban must have selectively obfuscated said flutter tonguing passages from the edition that I've had for 25 years.

    Additionally, such things are all about effect - how many contests have been won by people playing pieces by effects and not what's actually written on the page? Masquerade is all about them in certain places.

    If you can achieve the effect some other way, then so be it.

    Incidentally, the ability to flutter tongue also carries some genetic baggage. Flutter tonguing utilises the same muscles as rolling your tongue - some people are genetically denied that ability and try as they might just can't do it. I'll bet Jean Baptiste didn't know that.
  18. flower girl

    flower girl Member

    i find that if you start off with your mouth fairly closed, and then gradually open your mouth as you get quieter it is much easier (i know that is a strange way of doin it but it works for me)
  19. Richard_Brigg

    Richard_Brigg Member

    however... is obfuscated the right word? (just to be a prat)

  20. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Obfuscated could be one of several....

    Defined as "[size=-1]Darkened or cast in the shadow or background; obscured by withholding proper light or emphasis; hence, confused, bewildered or lost sight of."[/size]

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