Early Risers

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by T-Horn, Nov 10, 2004.

  1. T-Horn

    T-Horn Member

    A question popped up in band the other day and I thought I would share it with you all.
    How can adjudicators compare a band that plays at nine oclock in the morning to a band that plays later on that afternoon.
    It must be extremly difficult. Do they take into account the time? do they think about how "fresh" players are? the early morning start? The amount of time a band on in the afternoon has hung around?

    Feel free to share opinions!
  2. flugelgal

    flugelgal Active Member

    It's too hard to measure really. For example, our band had a 3 hour bus journey to get to the Whitburn contest on Saturday, so various band members had journeys into Aberdeen to meet the band bus (ok, some of us had to dash home for a forgotten uniform and meet the bus at the next pick up point but we won't go into that, will we? ;)) prior to that journey. It's too difficult to take all that into account, so I think that we just have to accept that each band doesn't come from and play in exactly the same conditions.

    It would be lovely if we could get it all the same, but in my opinion life is more interesting the way it is ;)
  3. ComposerAndy

    ComposerAndy Member

    Tricky to put everyone on an equal platform in terms of how fresh they are etc. I suppose they can only judge on what they hear, after all if you start taking into account other factors where does the line stop? Which bands had better attendance at rehearsals, who's got the MD that gets the best out of you, it could go on.

    They have to judge on the only thing that can be evident to them - how good is your final performance? If individual circumstances were all taken into account, including what order your performing in and the time of day, there'd be no reason to recompete. The definitive result would have been given already
  4. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    If you're asking how judges compare bands that go first thing in the morining as opposed to later in the day, I would say (Typically) less favorably ;)
  5. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    Argh! another adjudication thread!!! :-(
    Adjudication is subjective and not a science
  6. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    The adjudicators themselves are also subject to variations based on the time of day. For example, what about the last band before a meal break? - low blood sugar could affect alertness and cognitive thinking.

    All of the timing issues can best be summed up as "luck of the draw", whether it's a predetermined order or a random draw on the day.
  7. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    ... agreed... adjudication in the main is subjective, but... as I have said elsewhere, some of our adjudicators, those at the very top, are of excellent standard and I for one don't doubt their ability at all; the large majority of our adjudicators are also very good at what they do, however, there are a few people who quite simply, should not be adjudicators at all - and I am not afraid to say that.

    How do you become an adjudicator...? I could be wrong, but I guess you are invited to join the Association of Brass Band Adjudicators.... hmmm... OK then, how do you join that élite group... you become an adjudicator.... hmmmm.... sense something not quite right here...?? Sort of Golf Club closed shop mentality.

    Simply put, there is no accountability to YOU, the people they judge, and adjudicators are not answerable to anyone.

    They can listen to a range of bands performances, produce their results, make their comments, and because people such as yourself (and I mean no offense here) state as you do that adjudication is subjective and make comments such as that quoted - adjudicators can get away with anything.

    There is very little or no visible control covering the whole adjudication process from recruitment through to actually doing it - which does nothing to enhance the reputation of our Adjudicators or their movement. There are no feedback mechanisms in place that monitor the standards of adjudicators, nor are there quality processes in place to ensure any standards are adhered to and are maintained. When was the last time you were asked for your formal opinion of a persons ability to adjudicate?

    There are a lot of ideas out there that would improve things. I don't have all the answers for sure, but I do nkow we have to change because if you always do what you did you will always get what you got.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2004
  8. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    Perhaps we should have a system where the bands get to choose from a list of adjudicators.
  9. brasscrest

    brasscrest Active Member

    Interesting idea. I don't know that it would work for every contest, but it might for some.
  10. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Could you imagine if Michael Ball, Malcom Brownbill or David Read (those were the three judges right?) was randomly given a sample of eight of the recordings from RAH and one week later had to rejudge them. That would be a way to make sure that judges try to be as reliable as possible. Inter and Intra rater reliability are something required by anybody doing graduate research that involves interviews (I believe)
  11. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    ... and the names of the adjudicators who were put up for choosing at each contest, together with the actual choice of adjudicator for each contest, is compiled into a table that is then published as part of a Quality Standards in Adjudication campaign.;)
  12. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Good idea to help improve standards Pat, but it could be used incorrectly too. Adjudicators can only determine the placing of bands based on what they hear from within their box. Recordings can sound totally different when played back at a later stage... acoustics, positioning of adjudicators etc all play an important factor.

    It would be a great idea though that if, during a contest, each of the performances were recorded (easily done nowadays - and this is indeed already done in some New Zealand competitions) and the adjudicators had the opportunity to replay a selection/small part of the performance again from a mixing system set up in their box... I am certain that people cannot write and listen with 100% concentration on both!!
  13. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    This a bit like the 'should we have instant video replay on football matches'?? Perhaps we can have a fourth adjudicator as well incase of(!) any disputes for the bands on the adjudications ;)
  14. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Now you're getting a bit silly.

    I think they should go back and listen (perhaps John has a good Idea as they use miniCD recorders in North America as well) and that the reliability test be kept between the adjudicators and adjudicating agency , simply as a measure to assess judges NOT for the public to hang judges by!