early draw

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Leyfy, Mar 18, 2007.

  1. Leyfy

    Leyfy Active Member

    Yesterday we had to ask for an early draw at the area contest due to two players having to get back for a concert.

    One of the other representatives at the draw disagreed as they thought that in such a large section it was putting other bands to a disadvantage, and they'd apparently turned down someone because if they had played their band would have needed an early draw too.

    I just wondered what other people thought: Is an early draw an advantage (didn't do us any good!) and should a band be allowed to ask for this? Or would a band give exactly the same performance no matter where in the order they played?

    Personally I think if we'd played 1st, 3rd or 16th we'd still have come in exactly the same place!!!
  2. We played in the 4th section in Torquay last weekend and came 5th out of 23. We were drawn first, we all went down that morning so woke up at 5am... That was the first contest we'd ever done together, only been together 10 weeks and the majority of the players were under 18. Most of us hadn't played in any contest before.
    I strongly believe that going first is only a disadvantage if it's let affect the band's mindset. If they believe that going first is a disadvantage then they're going to have that in the back of their minds. So it will become a disadvantage. We did really really well, all things considered, and lots and lots of us hadn't played an adult contest before so didn't know if it was a bad thing or not.
    Also, i think it's good because we didn't see any other band play to see how good or bad they were or the differences in their tempos etc.
  3. andyp

    andyp Active Member

    I think there's an awful lot of rubbish talked about "the dreaded number 1", but not entirely without foundation.

    In a perfect world the adjudicator would judge all performances equally, so the number you played wouldn't matter. However.....

    In an Area contest (for example), where the piece is known months in advance, an the adjudicator has time to study the score, maybe listen to some CD's or rehearsals and form their opinion of how the piece should be played.....it probably doesn't make a great deal of difference.

    On the other hand, in "own choice", or where the piece is brand new, and particularly in lower sections, I think there is a slight disadvantage in being first on (especially at 9:00 am!), the opposite of the above applies, it may be the first real hearing of the piece the adjudicator has had, etc.

    People do win off number 1 though, even in top section, so it's not a done deal by any means.

    I also think if a band asks to play number 1 for a good reason, commitments etc, they should be allowed to. If it's such a disadvantage (allegedly) then let them!
  4. Yeah, but i don't think EVERYONE would agree it is a disadvantage. Therefore it could never be really fair. The existing method has to be the best way. ALSO, if a band knew they were going to request to go first, an adjudicator could hear about this and therefore know that the first band was likely to be them. Not good.
  5. stopher

    stopher Member

    It depends

    Yesterday, I was drawn number 1 for the 2nd year running. Ideal as we get to warm up on stage. Last year, we came 7th, yesterday 2nd. Thought it was an advantage actually, especially on Prelude and Jubilate as we are able to warm up which is virtually impossible at the brangwyn hall!
  6. trippo

    trippo New Member

    A request for a number 1 position was made at the draw for the 2nd Section at Torquay last weekend (for a very valid reason) and there was a collective sigh of relief from all the other band reps as they then didn't have to phone back to their respective bands hotels to tell them they had drawn numero uno.
  7. Ipswich trom

    Ipswich trom Member

    We supported your request Kim! ;)

    The thing is, next time the band that weren't happy with the request need a favour for something we will remember them!!!

    At Folkestone (when it was last held) the band drawn number 2 asked if they could borrow band no. 1's Timps and were rebuffed. In fact can you believe that they were refused the request by all bands down to us and we were drawn 8th so had to get then there early, nmove them off again etc! And we wonder why some of us get really fed up with this friend;ly banding movement!
  8. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    I was representing a band at this draw on Saturday in Stevenage that also requested an early draw and was astonished at the attitude of the people that objected.

    I know there is no given right to be 'granted' a request for an early draw and it is up to the band delegates to say yes or no but for goodness sake what does it matter.

    The band I was there for had four people that needed to get away from Stevenage (who doesn't!!) to get to their jobs. After all the effort gone in to rehearsing and getting the band there wouldn't it be a travesty if a band had to withdraw on the day because other band delegates refused the request for an early draw. Indeed one of the bands on Saturday withdrew their request for an early draw after the objections were voiced and were subsequently drawn 14. I wonder how that went down with the band :confused:

    It has already been said but if you are ever a band that objects to such requests just remember that when you are ever in the position to have to ask :dunno
  9. Lotta

    Lotta Member

    We have never had to ask to an early draw but I have been in the draw when others have and there was nearly uproar!!!! I really don't see a problem with people asking for an early draw as they must have a valid reason for asking in the first place. Some people must think theres an ulterior motive for asking!!!
  10. MarkGillatt

    MarkGillatt Member

    The problem is, everyone knows months in advance when the contest is, where it is, and how long the section will last. Whilst I understand that some situations turn up at the last minute, if a band can't get all their players to be available all day on one day for the most important contest in the calendar then there must be something wrong. Suspicious people may make allegations of adjudicator knobbling if a band wins from a requested number one draw. If several bands require an early draw then by all means put them in a seperate hat, at least there is still an element of chance.

    Just a thought.......
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2007
  11. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    Why must there be something wrong? For example - people who work shifts might have their shift patterns changed the week before the contest. Somebody who works in IT may be assigned to an important/urgent project the week before the contest. Knowing about the contest months in advance makes absolutely no difference to people involved in these examples. And there are many more that I can think of.

    I can understand that to a certain extent which is why...................

    This does happen. In the L&SC anyway. On Saturday for the 1st Section three bands requested an early draw. Numbers 1 to 5 were put in a hat and the three bands drew from them. As it happens nobody actually drew number 1.
  12. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    Perhaps requests for the early draw should be submitted with the entry and objects can be settled two-weeks prior as to not have effort wasted?

    One has to admit that UK brass band contests are one of the few events in life where somebody must set aside 5 hours of their life for a 15 minute engagement (and not know in advance which 15 minutes they will be busy).
  13. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    Same issue as in my previous post. Entries have to be in at least a month before the contest date. Bands may not be aware of a 'timing' problem right up to the day.

    It gets back to the point - does it really make a difference? If the method used by L&SC is adopted there really isn't any justification in objecting. Is there? :dunno
  14. Texus

    Texus Member

    There are many issues with draws and moral questions about advantages etc.. here. Until a predraw situation exists then we just have to accept a lot of wasted time.

    On the question of requsting a certain draw i can sympathise but understand the reluctance to allow it. What if it had been for a late draw as players had commitments in the morning?
  15. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    Same principle applies. If there are 16 in the section and three request late draws put 11 to 16 in the hat and let the three bands draw from them.
  16. PeterBale

    PeterBale Moderator Staff Member

    I was one of the plaers at Becontree who benefitted by being allowed an early draw: two of us had a long-standing (and quite prestigious) engagement with another band that evening. If necessary, we would have taken the normal draw, and tried to get back for as much of the other concert as possible; as it was, we were back comfortably. The other player affected had a work engagement that was difficult to get out of, and would almost certainly have had to withdraw from the contest if the early draw had been refused.

    I think the system adopted by L&SC to cope with the early draw was as good as it could be, so that there were still a range of places open, and no-one was guaranteed the dreaded Number One slot. I do feel, however, that this should have been settled in advance, rather than on the day, as the uncertainty can be quite unsettling.

    As to whether an early draw does place bands at a disadvantage, this is probably more of a problem where points are awarded, particularly if thepoints are allocated at the time the band plays. If you are going to use a points system, there is something to be said for giving the first band a middle number, with subsequent bands being marked higher or lower according to how they play. I gather this system works well in some other competitions, although it woukld probably upset bands who are used to seeing marks in the 190s!
  17. MRSH

    MRSH Supporting Member

    I agree that it can be unsettling but how could you settle it in advance? The system adopted is such the contest controller has no say as to whether the requested early draw(s) is(are) granted. It is wholly down to the other band delegates at the draw.
  18. NeilW

    NeilW Member

    The only time I've been in the position of "requesting" a certain draw was when the conductor and several members of the band were involved in both the Youth section and 2nd section finals - back in the days when all the finals were all on the same day and in London! (pre- 1st section days, of course)

    It seemed a vary valid reason for requesting a particular draw!

    I seem to remember we took the 1st draw position in the Youth section and then hared up to Imperial College in taxis!! Fortunately we had a reasonably late draw there. However, everyone was understanding and I think something would have been "sorted out" if we'd been held up in traffic from Fulham (or was it Chelsea?) to Kensington.

    Don't remember where we came in the Youth section, but we came 4th in 2nd section (and it remains the only finals I've played in!. Happy memories...
  19. Morghoven

    Morghoven Member

    Maybe part of the problem with an early draw is psychological. After all, "everyone knows you won't win from an early draw", so when the contest secretary pulls number 1 out of the bag you collectively think 'we can't win it now' and as a result don't actually play as well?

    I know that I personally always prefer late draws...for that exact reason.
  20. six pints

    six pints Active Member

    I actually prefer earlyish draws- I'd rather just get on and play then hang around for a few hours with not a great deal to do. There's pros and cons for early and late draws. But if a band has a genuine reason for needing a particular draw, then I dont hnik it should be a problem. I think it was last year a band in the 2nd section (kippax?) did this at skegness and they won, and I dont remember any of the cynics getting upset... Of course I may have imagined this....

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