Dominant 14th discussion

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by MoominDave, May 9, 2011.

  1. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    A dominant 7th with aspirations?
  2. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Aston Villa - currently three points clear of Blackburn.....
  3. TonyW

    TonyW Supporting Member

    Nah - miles away.
  4. TonyW

    TonyW Supporting Member

    Well in football terms, I`d say no. But I`ll accept 6 points clear of Chelski. ;)
  5. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    You're clearly dying for someone to say something and be wrong, so I'll indulge you - this once.....

    If it follows the normal conventions of compound intervals, then I'd assume it'd be an octave plus a minor sixth.
  6. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    erm... don't you mean plus a minor 7th ? (a 12th being an octave + a fifth)

    or is the answer 42 ?? (not even sure why I care...)
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  7. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Or even a 7th. Stuck on top of the V major chord, one would imagine. [Which is what I'd already said, to be fair, albeit slightly cryptically to play the game]

    But that's a bit straightforward. Perhaps the answer is the Sun King...
  8. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    Yes, sorry, of course I do. For some reason my brain regularly lets me down when I have to deal with intervels over an octave. I put it down to being a bass player and not having time to take my shoes and socks off...

    Don't ever trust me with theory. I just put dots down that sound how I want....

    "What we demand is an absence of solid facts...." ;)
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  9. TonyW

    TonyW Supporting Member

    Ha ha - wrong. I was cheating a little. It wouldn`t be classed as a normal chord. It`s more of a passing note - something you might hear in a Lehar Soprano solo, or even a solo cornet in BB.

    Count upwards from any C, 14 notes, and you come to B natural. Place underneath this `B` a C7 chord and you`ll hear that the B nat wants to resolve upwards onto the C immediately above. Or to be a bit more flowery - B, then up to D, then down to a C with probably a pause. A very loose Dominant 14th :rolleyes:?

    More or less, I hear from those who only like their `crunchy bars` sold in confectionary shops wrapped up in paper, and not on the concert platform - geddit?
  10. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    Not so. If it is a dominant chord on C then we are in the key of F. Count up 14 notes of an F scale and you come to Bb, not B natural. It's a dominant 7th.

    Looking forward to my free score. Das Rheingold, please!
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  11. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Ermm, you sure? I counted up 14 notes of an F scale and came to 'E'; perhaps I've misunderstood ...
  12. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    Yep, I'm sure! Mr Wakefield is using an example of a dominant 14th chord based on C. So you need to count from C. The 7th of the chord is a Bb and so is the 14th. (School theory admittedly creaking a bit here!)
  13. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    OK, I'm with you now; one self-administered dope-slap coming up (as our transatlantic friends would say ... )
  14. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Active Member

    You can use my score of Das Rheingold, when it arrives!
  15. KMJ Recordings

    KMJ Recordings Supporting Member

    Presumably not the pocket edition? ;)
  16. TonyW

    TonyW Supporting Member

    Ah, so many replies tmp haven`t advised me about - :-?

    And so many seemingly different perceptions. I`ll try again:

    I thought at first that I hadn`t suggested the key of F, or any key, but I`ll concede that the `dom 7th` using C,E,G,Bb does. I did mention `C7` however, (which by itself, does not imply any key base) to try to make things more readily understood. If I misled you - sorry.

    I also mentioned counting upwards from C, fourteen notes, and this 14th note is B.
    Place a C7 chord underneath and you have really only a passing 14th - not a recognised chord of `C14` as such, but having said that, in a past era where a C7 used to be in the key of F, some wise guy from Eisenach, Thuringia, came along and put any note above C7. Non of us got there before him, we just don`t have the lugs.

    [I do have a score btw for BB, but this is intended for another thread] :)
  17. TonyW

    TonyW Supporting Member

    Hi Gareth.

    "An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field."
    Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

    Have you heard this one?
    "You have to play for a long time before you can play like yourself" - Guess who?

  18. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Miles Davis, but not quite the exact wording ...
  19. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Yes, but Johann wouldn't have recognised a C7; you'd have to express it in terms of roman numerals, or figured bass ...
  20. 0VU

    0VU New Member

    I don't usually post here but I'm curious as my, admittedly rather old, grasp on musical theory is being shaken a bit here.

    I was under the distinct impression that the term C7 refers to a dominant 7th chord based upon C which does imply Fmaj. If you'd used Cmaj7 than thats's a C major chord with a 7th (natural) which leaves things a bit more open. It ain't dominant though.

    Since you've been talking about an interval of '14 notes' without specifying it to be flattened, and you then state that "counting upwards from C, fourteen notes, and this 14th note is B" you're describing an octave plus a major seventh, or 23 semitones - which is a major 14th. The 'minor 14th' or 'flattened 14th' would give a dominant 7th. But that wasn't specified.

    If you have a major 14th, how do you get a dominant 7th? To be a dominant 7th, surely the B has to be flat or it's not part of the C7, (dominant 7th chord based upon C to the key of F maj), it's a compound Cmaj7 (which would simply be notated as Cmaj7 not C7 or C14).

    Or am I missing something?
    Last edited: May 11, 2011

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