Do you think that parents' selfishness has an adverse effect on children...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by scotchgirl, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member today's world of wanting everything now now now.

    Children are increasingly put in childcare because parents can't afford to raise them without both parents having to work...broken homes with divorces becoming easier to obtain....pressures through the education system - children being pushed and pushed....a neglect of children's emotional needs and a focus on the need to always be the best at everything...

    I happen to agree with some of these views....I think that you shouldn't have children if you can't afford to raise them without at least one parent being the main carer (not a nursery teacher or a grandparent)...its different if you have had children, then your circumstances change financially, but to actually put your children in that position deliberately I don't agree with....and I do realise that will make me unpopular.

    I would love to have more children (I have two already), and I could...if I went back to work....but to me that is missing the whole point of having kids in the first place.

    I also think that, as old-fashioned as it is, that pushing children through a one-size-fits-all National Curriculum is really bad news. We are trying to get our children to conform to some sort of government standard, because its 'easier' for those who educate our children....not because its best for the children.

    As for neglecting our children's emotional needs - you only have to go to any average high school and talk to kids about what they think is important in life....the focus on looking right, having the right stuff (phones, laptops, video games) and the pressure to do well in exams...Why not, being the best they can, improving themselves in whatever they think they are good at, family, friends, aims, achievements.....

    I think that as individuals we all think we are doing the best for our kids...but as a nation....I'm not entirely sure.....

    What do you think?
  2. StellaJohnson

    StellaJohnson Active Member

    I think whatever you do, in someone's eyes its not right. Regarding work, I think mothers get criticised going part time time becasue they are part time and were working full time before, and if stay full time they are in some peoples eyes seen as neglecting there childhood and upbringing.

    A friend I used to work with, used to live in Denmark. where the the government pays for there child care in return for benefits and mother must go to work. Appparently it works over there as the children (and she was a child then in this system) want to go as there friends go.

    To be honest, I have no children and wouldn't know what the answer is, I think we all have different opions on this.
  3. jockinafrock

    jockinafrock Active Member

    Tricky one this...

    When I had both my kids I wish I had been in the financial position not to have to work, but I wasn't. What I tried to do though was focus on the 'quality' of the time I spent with them, and not the 'quantity'.

    In my line of work I see many families where the parents are unable to play with their kids, but not always because they don't want to - it's just they don't know how to... Often they've never experienced 'quality' time with their own parents, so unfortunately they themselves don't possess the skills to pass on to their own munchkins - and so the vicious circle perpetuates... Unfortuately, a parents instinct to give their child what they want, rather than what they need, fuels the fire and, yes, a guilty conscience often plays a big part in all of this.

    With so many things available to kids nowadays ie computers, wii, etc, we are disempowering them. It takes a lot more to excite and satisfy children, so much so that not many kids outside of a school playground gain any pleasure from skipping, hopscotch, tag,etc...

    This isn't the law according to Jockinafrock - it's evidence-based.
    I also feel for the schools who have to follow pie-in-the-sky initiatives devised by goodness knows who in Government. One cap certaily does not fit all, but I'm sure teachers are more than aware of this and do their best for the charges in their care within the constraints imposed upon them..

    Phew! Got that off my bazookas... Not often I'm serious... :tongue:
  4. leisa

    leisa Active Member

    I was brought up with both my parents working full time and wouldnt have wished it any other way.

    My view is that if you can afford to give up work after having kids then fair enough, but I don't think that putting children into child care is a bad thing necessarily as I think it teaches social skills alot better than staying at home with family all the time. I was put between grandparents and a couple of days a week at nursery then when i was about 3 i went to prep school which i only have fond memories of, I also think the transition to primary school was alot easier for me, I remember other kids giong home at lunch time as they were only in for half days and I quite enjoyed my full days, I also think it made me a bit more independant when i was younger.

    I'm not really sure what Ill do when we have kids although we have discussed me going part time at work when we do which i think is probably the best of both worlds!!
  5. Pythagoras

    Pythagoras Active Member

    Not because its 'easier' for those teaching children, but because it makes it easiest for the school leaders to obtain the targets/position on various league tables/headline 5 A*-C grades etc, even if some of the qualifications are completely meaningless or not in the best interests of a particular child, and this because of pressure from the government.

    Teachers would like not to do a one-size fits all curriculum as well. 'Best for the children' blimey, that would be good.
  6. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    :clap: Absolutely. Between work and band I don't get quite as much time as I'd like with the kids so when I do spend time with them I try to make it count; even if it's just reading a few stories or helping to make somethig with the lego!

    Much as I hate to sound like a right-winger, I have to say there are families near where I live in which the mothers don't work, but spend the day in their PJs watching Jeremy Kyle. It's not unknown for them to pick the kids up from school in their slippers, and when they get home, the telly goes straight on and the kids are shoved in front of it.

    We're fortunate in that my wife now works from home and can work while the kids are in school, or in bed, or when I'm home to see to them, but when they were younger she worked part-time and the little'uns went to a childminder, who was brilliant with them. They were forever coming home with biscuits they'd made, or huge paintings, or some other example of a creative afternoon with glue and scissors.

    As to whether that's had an adverse effect on them... ask me in about 20 years ;). I sometimes think that if we spent less time agonising over whether we're doing "the right thing" and just got on with enjoying life, we'd be better examples to our kids.
  7. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    The thing is though, people saying that nurseries are excellent for social skills are forgetting the convenient fact that staying at home with a parent can be excellent for social skills. My son didn't go to nursery until he was 4 and he was one of the first to run in there, he didn't cry, he didn't want to come home lol! He made friends straight away, and he wasn't shy at all.

    He hadn't been to even a parent and child group before then...yet he still had social skills? How did this happen? Because I, his mother, made sure that he did! He played with his friends up the road, he visited family members, he went to the park to play, I took him to the odd rehearsal/concert, I made sure we all sat down at the table to eat together as a family, where we could interact and talk about our days.

    I don't understand how it can be fulfilling as a parent to pick your child up from a day nursery with a little sticker because they'd took their first step that day....I would be gutted. (this happened to my friend who has worked full-time from when their daughter was 3 months old).

    Why have children in the first place?

    I know this is an unpopular view...but as a parent of two wonderful kids...I know for a fact that had we not been able to afford them, we would never have planned to have them...never.
  8. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Not all children are "planned".

    Plus, what works for one child might be an utter disaster for another. TBH, as long as my kids seem to be happy, healthy, enjoying school and life in general, I'll settle for that and I'm not overly bothered if other people think I'm a "bad parent" - there are only two opinions that matter and they're aged 6 and 4 :D

    I'm not sure it's an unpopular view (I know many who would agree entirely) so much as an overly judgemental view - usually, the only people who can honestly say what's best for a child are that child's parents!
  9. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    I'm not saying that it doesn't work for some people. I am positive that there are some parents out there who don't have a clue, and do sit at home all day on the computer/watching telly or whatever, and don't interact with their kids, and for those children then childcare probably is the best alternative.....

    I do feel that the availability of childcare nowadays IS a manifestation of the 'want it now' culture. Adults are not willing to wait until they can financially support their children....or are worried that they never WILL be able to be that financially sound. What we have to realise though, and tough as it is...children are a blessing not a right. No-one has a right to have a child.

    I also think that the rise in teenage pregnancies is showing that something is lacking. Why are young girls/boys even contemplating having sex and getting pregnant? They are either missing parental control, or have not been given any inclanation that there is something beyond popping babies out forever....or they are starved of love and think that having a baby will make a person who loves them.....

    Why don't they have goals in life? Interests? Hobbies?

    Its seen as old-fashioned, more old-fashioned than the latest trainers, games consoles, mobile phones and god forbid the latest design in pushchairs! (I have heard from a teacher friend of a girl in her class who was talking about 'when she gets pregnant then she's gonna get a Loola buggy coz they look really cool').
  10. Hells Bones

    Hells Bones Active Member

    At the moment, My brother and sister in law have two kids but only my brother works (I've mentioned circumstances in pervious threads).

    When their oldest (who is 4 next month (GOOD LORD! Time has gone by too quick)) was only ickle, they both had to work full time to keep the household running and had to put my nephew into a daytime nursery.

    Although my brother hated it (and still does) because he is a chef and works ridiculous hours, they had to make do with that because of the financial problems they were having.

    Having said that, when my brother has a day off, it is my nephew's favourite day of the week (my brother is a child at heart, even if he is nearly 6 years older than me, doesn't mind jumping up and down with the kids or running around and playing games).

    They have a house together, they work hard for each other and their kids and I can only hope that if (BIG if) I have kids I can be half as good at parenting as they are.
  11. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    How to upset people quickly:

  12. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    How to upset people quickly:

    (Including pressing the wrong button Doh!)

    1. Many people these days have kids as an accoutrement to their lifestyle. The children are no more important to them than colleague at work with whom they may or may not network, or a Gucci Handbag
    2. The National Curriculum is not a one-size-fits-all as many people think because as children come to me from KS2, it is patently obvious that they have not all had the same educational chances
    3. Far too many teachers are just in it because of the golden hello and do their utmost to get out of the classroom and away rom the children as quickly as possible.
    4. Box ticking is rewarded and good teaching is often ignored if it doesn't tick a box (or sometimes just a particular box that is important to that head)
    5. Parents need to take responsibility for their offspring. I don't care which parent does the parenting, but one of them must (see the comment re lifestyle babies above).
    6. We had a 'wider family' in the form of aunts and uncles who could and often did cover for mum when her shifts got in the way of bringing us up. It was a shared responsibility and we were the better for it.
    7. Parents are too risk averse - I'm not saying be careless or irresponsible, but let the little beggars use up their energy
    8. Parents (and other adults) have forgotten how to say no and mean it.
    9. There no longer seem to be consequences. It's a bit late to find out what 'burn' means when your house is on fire.
    10. Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything. Those who do try to take responsibility are lambasted and derided and the rest of you put your heads in the sand and forget that some of things that are going wrong are your own ****** fault!
  13. jockinafrock

    jockinafrock Active Member

  14. sterlingsop

    sterlingsop Member

  15. sterlingsop

    sterlingsop Member

    Pam's quick response:
    1. If you wait until you can afford kids you'd never have them
    2. EVERYBODY feels guilty about whether they're looking after their kids right, but only when they compare their circumstances to their friend's.....just relax and get on with doing it YOUR way and it's sure to be the RIGHT way.
    3. The pressure on women to "have it all" by going to work AND having kids does not come from wanting the latest mobile, TV, clothes, shoes etc but from some insane idea that kids deserve a roof over their head and food in their bellies every day.
    4. Nurseries can be excellent for kids, nurseries can be disastrous for kids. It all depends on the nursery. And the kid....
    5. There are two types of family in this country - ones that WORK for a living and those that SLOTH for a living. Please don't tell me the slipper and pj wearing Jeremy Kyle addicts who turn up to the doctors, or their kid's school, or to the shops in their pink fluffy pj bottoms make better parents than those who actually try to contribute to society by earning a living themselves just because they spend all day at home with their kids (pre-schoolers, truants etc). Quality time is better than quantity time, surely??
    6. Kids who go to nurseries, childminders, grandparents etc whilst parents go to work grow up to be more self-confident, less needy and greedy, and more appreciative kids with a good strong work ethic and who are not afraid of contributing to society in a positive way. Well they do in my experience - my two are fantastic! And 16 years on our family unit is as strong as ever. If I'd known then what I know now i wouldn't have put myself through the emotional hell I went through for the first 5 years of my daughter's life to go to work and keep a roof over our heads.
    7. Kids who "want it all now" generally don't want to work at getting it, and that is down to the parent's work ethic. If you demonstrate that it takes time to earn and save up then your child will grow up with the same idea. If you show them that it can be all bought on a credit card you're painting a very unrealistic picture of what it's like in the real world. And I know that from both sides of that particular coin!
    8. Kids are ace and parents should just enjoy their time with them. Get down on the floor and play when you can, don't worry about getting your kitchen table covered in paints, let them plant flowers in the garden, relax and watch a kids film on DVD with them.....I wish I'd made more of it when mine were younger, although I'm trying my hardest to make up for it nowadays!!
  16. themusicalrentboy

    themusicalrentboy Active Member

    I think that bit is complete and utter rubbish but other than that I agree.

    My mum held down 2 or 3 part time jobs but made it so that she could look after me and my sister and we turned out perfectly confident, just like the 400 odd 6th formers in my school who are mostly in the same boat.
  17. sterlingsop

    sterlingsop Member

    The point I was making was that parents who work tend to bring up kids who are more confident etc, which seems to be what you're saying about your mum. Whether she was there or not during the day, she was obviously a strong lady who gave her kids the backbone to go and earn and not sloth about. I perhaps didn't say it quite right in my original point!
  18. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    Pam - your very first point is the one that I was trying to make!! If you can't afford to have children, then don't have them! lol! Like I said, however much I wanted to have children, had we not been in a financial state to look after them without the both of us working, then I wouldn't have gone ahead and done it...why? Because MY children are MY responsibility...I didn't have my children to send them to daycare from 6am to 6pm every day.....I didn't have them to be told in a note that my child had said 'mummy' for the first time.....I didn't have them to abdicate responsibilty for them to someone else!

    As for the 'quality versus quantity' me that is a way for working parents to try and ease the guilt they have for not spending enough time with their kids. They can say, 'oh but if I was with them all day, I wouldn't be spending good quality time with them'....well I am a stay at home mum, and every minute I spend with my children is quality time...even if it is dossing in front of the telly for half an hour to watch In the Night Garden...why? Because we are doing it as a family...together....not in a group of 15 other children supervised by a couple of adults, who are not emotionally invested.

    Mike - Re no 7 of your list - I find the best recourse is to look away lol! If I watched my two year old in the playpark most of the time I would be near heart failure lol! (JOKE btw). I do agree though, some parents are too frightened to let their kids run around in the garden getting filthy and eating mud/grass/worms....and are up in arms when for example their child bumps their head in a school playground. Callum fell in school last week, and his teacher was actually mortified because she felt so bad about it....that is until I said 'for Gods sake, there's not even a mark on him, he's had worse from his sister throwing lego at him!'....teachers are panicking about every lump and bump on a child, when it used to be expected that children would occasionally get hurt!!

    As for education - I think that education should be tailored to the school first of all, then filtered down to the individual child within that school. The one thing that should be 'one size fits all' is the STANDARD of teaching and the promotion of always bettering yourself, whether that means you're not fantastic at reading, but excellent at playing the trombone, or you couldn't do multiplication at the beginning of the year, but at the end of the year you've managed it.
  19. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    And also Sterling Sop, read my post about when my son started school nursery......he is perfectly confident and able to interact socially, because contrary to some people's belief about us SAHMs, we actually do have lives!! We take our children places, and let them meet people, and do activities!!

    And, I don't live on a credit card (don't even have one actually), and my children learn about the work ethic through their FATHER, who works damn hard at his job! Try to remember that it takes two people to make a baby lol!
  20. themusicalrentboy

    themusicalrentboy Active Member

    ah right - my mistake :)