Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Boner, Mar 20, 2007.

  1. Boner

    Boner New Member

    I came across this today, in my opinion it doesn't do the band any favours at all.
    I think this public bashing of adjudicators is wrong but it is going to happen now we have the internet. I just think that bands craving success or licking their wounds would be better off doing it privately. If what comes out of the bell is good enough it will win eventually. You just look like arses when you start complaining. They certainly weren't in my top six.............but i wasn't in the box::

    "North West Area – March 11th 2007, indeed a black day. We needed to announce to the banding world that Besses o'th' Barn Band of old has changed, that performances were about to improve dramatically and that an immediate return to the Championship section was a reality. I firmly believe that we did do that, which has been supported by many. My pride in how you all performed was immense and in such a short space of time you were magnificent. However, an old colleague of mine had other ideas.
    I mentioned to you all more than once that I did have grave reservations about Roy’s ability as an adjudicator. I have been present at some contests where similar things have happened, some absolute “howlers” of results and unfortunately his reputation has gone before him, the most recent being in the South West, two areas ago on Rienzi. A result the bands still talk about.
    I was first alerted to this problem as long ago as 10 years. He judged the top section in Blackpool on Lowry Sketchbook. A piece I knew exceedingly well. Faireys were “awarded” first prize, they were flabbergasted after a performance which was not good by their own admission. Wrong entries and a very under par effort! This adjudicator missed it all. I’m sure, if I went digging, I’d find many more horror stories. During the day of our contest many people were confirming my thoughts.
    Roy Roe was a top, top Soprano Cornet player with a great ability and many years of experience. However, he has no experience as a contest conductor. My views on this are very strong, as adjudication is exactly the same job as conducting a band, without having to provide a solution for the players. Hence, making it much easier. It is imperative that the adjudicator has been or even better, actually is, a successful contest conductor. Without that essential experience it is very unlikely that anyone from the brass band arena will have the ability to do this special job successfully".


    Now, this is written by... THE CONDUCTOR! On Besses own website!!
    What sort of reputation will the band gain with such public statements. Not very professional at all from the Professional Musical Director.
    I have played in more contests than i can remember and have had 'bad results' . I have voiced my opinion to friends and colleagues about these results but never thought to publish them. The speech that congratulates the band on their hard work is something that should surely be made in the band room, not on the internet. The public lambasting of Roy Roe is in my opinion a disgrace. I have been at the winning and losing end of Roy's adjudication numerous times. He has been adjudicating for years and for the most part his results stand up.
    I'm sure if we delve into the history of any adjudicator's record we can find results that we didn't agree with. One in particular springs to mind..........................................
    Carlton Main winning the Yorks Area by four points in 1999!- Indeed a black day, but the result stands.
    If you want to put your band back on the map then go to the next contest and try again.
    If you're good enough you will start to win more than you lose.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  2. Lauradoll

    Lauradoll Active Member

    I take it you have an axe to grind with Besses or John Hinckley? I also like the way you don't name yourself either, have you no dignity either?

    I think you should identify yourself or remove your post, it's not helpful to anyone really Mr Boner.
  3. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member

    The first post would indeed have been improved by a signature, and does seem to have some issues in itself (complaining about Carlton Main's win is just as bad as complaining about Besses losing) but the quote above should not have appeared on any band's website.

    I'm sure we all, adjudicators included, have been involved in performances that we feel deserved better results than they got, but turning a vague dissatisfaction with the adjudication process into a personal attack is not justified, especially on the website of a band rather than a personal blog.

    I'm sure many of us are saddened by the current hard times Besses are going through but this doesn't justify public attacks like this.
  4. steve butler

    steve butler Active Member

    Well said Laura, strange how he never "publishes" his opinions but goes on to criticise frickleys result in 1999!?
  5. Lawrencediana

    Lawrencediana Member

    In professional sport this would be deemed to be bringing the game into disrepute, should we have a charge similar to this. Perhaps controlled by the BFBB.
  6. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    There are times when people posting controversial topics need to protect their anonymity, but I really don't see why this should be the case here.

    Anyway, my question is this: If an adjudicator regularly performs unacceptably badly, what should the banding movement do to get him or her to improve, or even to stop adjudicating? What other options are available other than strongly worded complaints in public?
  7. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member

    How about....

    Complaining in a private correspondence to the organisers of the contest who appointed the adjudicator who you think didn't perform well.

    Not attending contests where the adjudicator has been appointed and making your reasons for doing so clear (or at least raising your concerns about the adjudicator with the organisers in advance, not moaning about it after you've lost).

    Raising concerns with the Association of Brass Band Adjudicators (who in turn could make the adjudicator aware that concerns had been raised, IF they deemed them justified)
  8. steve butler

    steve butler Active Member

    Sometimes it may be neccesary to tailor your performance to meet the preferred taste of the adjudicator (if this has been ascetained from previous comments etc), which could be seen as compromising ones musical principals but may help to achieve a better placing at contests. You can't get away from the fact that its all subjective and one man (sorry person)'s view is often far removed from the next. But as far as airing your views I think its always better to get it off your chest and agree to differ if neccesary. I'm sure every adjudicator (and I must admit I've slagged em off at times) is doing their best to be fair and honest but then my opinion has always been that music is an art form and not sport so prefer a good concert any day!
  9. Big Gav

    Big Gav Member

    I am surprised that John has written this on a public website. I have met him on several occasions and he is always the perfect gentleman. He is, of course, entitled to his own opinion but probably should have shared them privately.
  10. Big Gav

    Big Gav Member

    This thread does raise the issue, yet again, of people writing comments on tMP without showing who they are! If you havent the balls to say who you are then dont say anything. Why do we have to have the secrecy anyway? I think that everybody has the right to see who's writing what.
  11. Owen S

    Owen S Member

    Fair enough, though I would say that public complaints encourage others to complain, something that can be useful given that you might put one dodgy result down to the band misjudging how well they played. Once you know other people feel the same way, you can be more sure of yourselves.
    Staying away isn't really an option for bands when it comes to the qualifiers, nationals or Open/Spring Festival though, and I've found four different people complaining about his adjudicating in five minutes searching, all in the qualifiers or national finals. Complaints at this time are unlikely to get you anywhere, since the regional committees are also very unlikely to change an adjudicator after formally announcing the list for the year.
    Perhaps, though it seems most likely they would assume sour grapes on the band's part. However, how could they know if the complaints unless they'd sent someone to sit in the audience? Even then it would be the word of one adjudicator against another.

    Also, I should point out that not all adjudicators are part of the Association of Brass Band Adjudicators, as someone (apologies, I forget who) said recently.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2007
  12. Lauradoll

    Lauradoll Active Member

    I agree 100% with this Gav.
  13. horn1

    horn1 Member

    So do I, secrecy does nothing to further your cause and often gives the impression you've a personal axe to grind. If you want to say something strongly enough go on record and don't hide behind a username.
  14. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    Yet another entry into the 'We wuz robbed' files. If you don't like losing contests, don't go in for them!
  15. Boner

    Boner New Member


    some people seem to have missed the point.
    did i say i have an axe to grind with besses anywhere?? erm.. no
    did i say i have an axe to grind with john hinckley?? erm..no

    did i say i didn't agree with frickley's result in 1999, erm yes BUT, i didn't compete in this contest, i was an observer/listener and therefore i am not complaining about MY OWN BAND'S RESULT, I am not bitter about it, i just think it was a bad result.

    Here lies the difference.....

    discussing the merits of a contest result is one thing, complaining bitterly and blaming adjudicators about your own band's results is another..
    This is not the first time or place that a tiny minority of Besses have publicly complained/blamed adjudicators

    the post was highlighting the unprofessionalism of the practice of complaining about your own band's results AND blaming the adjudicator in a public forum.
    I have never witnessed true professionals such as Nick Childs, Dave King etc publicise their disappointment when given a bad result. Professionals just get on with it.
  16. Boner

    Boner New Member

    i didn't say i don't publish 'opinions'- my first line is an opinion.
    the difference is that others are complaining publicly about their own results and blaming someone else for them. i don't think it's good for your band.(that's an opinion)

    i also think you are assuming i played in yorkshire in 1999; but i didn't. i was in the audience.

    anyway, back to the topic eh?
  17. steve butler

    steve butler Active Member

    There was only one thing I was assuming, anyway back to the topic eh?
  18. Lauradoll

    Lauradoll Active Member

    So would you care to enlighten us as to who you are then Boner?
  19. Boner

    Boner New Member

    perhaps you should open a new thread to discuss whether a poster should be anonymous or not.
  20. Kiz7

    Kiz7 Member

    Fair comment Boner!

    This thread was not about whether Boner should be allowed to express a view whilst "hiding" behind a username as far as I can see.

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