Dep's for contests

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by GER, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. GER

    GER Active Member

    Having just returned from Butlins, and hearing several conversations regarding the use of 'deps' just wondered what the community's thoughts on the use of dep's is. Please keep the discussion in general terms, I am not posting this for people to complain about specific bands or players.
    My own view? perhaps a small points deduction for using dep(s), it's a difficult one, but I feel there should be some encouragement for bands to use their own players, or cover parts where there are shortages.
    What does everybody think?
     
  2. Vegasbound

    Vegasbound Active Member

    what if it's to cover illness due to the current flu outbreak, which has caused fatalities...or the missing player is in the emergency services and has to work, or player is missing due to death in the family etc etc
     
  3. ari01

    ari01 Active Member

    I'd rather see deps than see bands not go.

    Also, I don't understand why using a dep should incur a penalty? The band would most likely be hindered already in their preparation by using deps in the first place!
     
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  4. MissBraz

    MissBraz Active Member

    I think deps seem to be used in certain sections rather than others. Yes bands should use their own players rather than deps however in some cases it may be a dep or nothing.

    It is a difficult subject that no one will ever agree on. Never going to change a bands ethos of using deps regularly if that is what they have always done!
     
  5. GER

    GER Active Member

    You're right, but is that not the most compelling reason to change the system? One of the conversations I overheard was talking about a band using deps and dropping regular players. No idea whether or not that was true, or just 'beer talk' but if so i think that is disgusting. As Vegasbound has pointed out there are valid reasons for using deps. the argument of the band not being able to go if they couldn't use deps is a lot more difficult. I don't know the answer, the points deduction was just an idea, perhaps there may be a system whereby deps are allocated to a band on the day?. Please don't get me wrong, I am not against using dep's I am just asking whether the community think the present system works or does it need some revision?
     
  6. MissBraz

    MissBraz Active Member

    I get what you are saying, personally, from my own bands perspective - we have never used deps and openly say that we will never drop regular players to bring in a dep. However from what I know and understand we are quite unusual in that way.
     
  7. GER

    GER Active Member

    We are the same in relation to using dep's, I really hope we are not unusual, if so the system really does need an overhaul, bringing players in to enhance the chances of taking the cash, at the expense of regular members cannot possibly be morally right, and must be very discouraging for the 'dropped' players.
     
  8. 4th Cornet

    4th Cornet Active Member

    That's pretty usual from my experience.

    If another band uses deputies, it's their prerogative (within the rules). We all have the same opportunity in theory. If it affects their band because e.g. it pushes someone else out, that's their issue to deal with and the benefits of the day will soon be paid for many times over in bad feeling and the resultant effects.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
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  9. GER

    GER Active Member

    You're right but I think that 1. Whilst within the rules, it's morally wrong, 2. The resultant effects may mean the loss of players to the movement, bands are getting thinner on the ground and moving to another band may not be a viable option. 3 It's a very short term view by the band that's doing it, wouldn't imagine many players would want to go to a band that's full of bad feeling.
    As I said before, whilst not disagreeing with using dep's in principle, think it's about time the rules were tightened up
     
  10. 4th Cornet

    4th Cornet Active Member

    I imagine the issue of pushing players out to use deps is relatively rare and impossible to police using the rules without stopping deps altogether.

    A band with a management committee that will happily upset players in this way is likely to have wider issues.

    It should also be noted that not every player that is swapped for contests is going to be unhappy. Some can recognise when they don't feel up to the necessary standard and volunteer to stand down for another player.
     
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  11. 2nd tenor

    2nd tenor Well-Known Member

    There’s always going to be divergence about what people think is fair, reasonable and civilised so best not to get too hung up about what’s going on; so long as the organiser’s rules are being adhered to and enforced, there’s nothing to be gained by doing anything else. Those rules are there for all to use and work within and, in so far as it is possible and practical, make for a ‘fair’ competition.

    I don’t contest but if I was in a band that did then I’d grudgingly cover the rehearsals but want them to put a Dep in my place for the actual competition. If my band contested and had a particularly weak player or two then I’d feel it best for them to stand back in favour of a Dep of similar ability to the rest of the band. If I was ill or had a work or family commitment then surely it’s fair for a similarly able Dep to take my place? What’s not so reasonable is for an able player to be replaced by a Star brought in for the competition, if the rules don’t already preclude that practice then perhaps its time that they did.
     
  12. GER

    GER Active Member

    If that's happening, (we have conflicting views from Missbraz and 4th cornet on that and,as I said, I overheard conversation, have no idea whether it's true or not) thats my point. IMHO there's a world of difference between a dep being used because of outside circumstances, and somebody being brought in to improve the band for the contest stage only at the expense of a regular player.
     
  13. 4th Cornet

    4th Cornet Active Member

    What would your view be on:
    a) a band which has a vacancy for soprano player who brought in a capable (not necessarily star) player for a contest?
    b) a band which has a vacancy for a 1st trombone player (covered by the 2nd trom player for concerts) who brings in a capable 1st trom dep in for a contest?
     
  14. GER

    GER Active Member

    You're asking an impossible question-who defines whether the player is capable, or a star, which blows some of the things I have been saying out the water!, however in both circumstances you are bringing players in which will improve the band from their membership, which raises the question is that fair? Offhand I can't think of any other sport/pastime that allows anything similar. My original post was basically asking the question whether there should be some form of redress if bands are using dep's, I don't know the answer, I just think that if bands are 'manipulating' the system then perhaps it is time to look at the system. I'm sure people can come up with various 'what if' scenarios, all with valid reasons, and no system can address all the issues.
     
  15. 4th Cornet

    4th Cornet Active Member

    Apologies, those questions weren't necessarily aimed at you or expecting answers, I was really raising different scenarios where a band could be in need of a missing player which wasn't a) to bring a star player in or b) because of 'outside circumstances'.

    My view on these would be that it's entirely fair and appropriate to bring a dep in, particularly if it's no different to what the band would do for a concert.
     
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  16. ari01

    ari01 Active Member

    I know that contests regularly say that a dep can only come from the same section, although granted, this isn't the same as an indication of a players ability.

    Also quite a few contest now state that borrowed players cannot occupy end chairs or play solos (in the case of entertainment contests)
     
  17. GER

    GER Active Member

    No apology neccesary, as we have both said there are scenarios where dep's have a place, I'm sure when the organisers decided on the use of dep's it was for all the right reasons, just a bit disappointed that some bands think it's OK to push the rules beyond reasonable boundaries. There was a lot of 'muttering' about the use of deps, if that becomes constant and louder there is a chance that the use of dep's could be stopped, which would benefit nobody.
     
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  18. 4th Cornet

    4th Cornet Active Member

    Agreed.

    I also think that sometimes the noise about deps can (not always) get exaggerated / imagined in the aftermath of a disappointing placing.
    It's natural to look for reasons why another band did better than your own. One person saying "at least we played with our own players" can, via Chinese whispers become understood as "the winning band had deps" and an emotional snowball follows. It's all part of the self-consoling process.
     
  19. Tom-King

    Tom-King Well-Known Member

    I think the "never drop regular players to bring in a dep" is very normal in 4th, 3rd and 2nd section... to be fair, it's unusual to find 1st section bands dropping players in order to bring in a dep too, though not completely unheard of.
    Not using deps at all (ever, regardless of circumstances) is something I've not come across though.

    Championship it all depends on the band - some are very tightknit groups and wouldn't dream of dropping a regular for a dep, some might bring in a soloist "dep" if the regular player is struggling and some... well, some (no names) will quite happily pay players (plus flying in from abroad, in some cases) quite large sums to dep.


    I guess it depends as much on the attitude of the existing players as much as it does on whoevers managing the band...
    For example - if we got an absolutely unplayable stinker of a testpiece and I simply couldn't play my part (sop) then I might be asked to play Bb for that contest and get a pro player in to sit on sop - as this is "my band" and I wouldn't want to let the side down, then I'd probably do that... but then there's a world of difference between that and being pushed out because the band has hired someone who's better even if the player can play the part.
     
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  20. Tom-King

    Tom-King Well-Known Member

    The problem is that this is almost entirely unenforceable.

    The standard rule is to say that you can only borrow from the same section or lower... in theory this should prevent "star" players from depping for bands they'd be "too good" for - but it doesn't at all.
    For example - what if there's a player who is eligible to be borrowed under this rule (ie: their regular band is from the same section or below) but this player could very easily be playing in a solo seat for a band in a higher section - does a band borrowing this player get an unfair advantage?
    (As an example to illustrate the above... I know of a band in, I believe, 2nd section with a principal cornet player who would be capable of playing principal with a good number of championship sections bands - let's say that "band A" borrows that player in second section, is it then fair that no other band in that section is able to borrow a player of that ability?)


    And let's just throw out another common objection, just for the sake of it:
    A "dep" is only defined by their registration - they're borrowed because they're registered to another band.
    But what if they're a member of two bands (attend both rehearsals every week, pay subs for both, perform concerts/etc publically with both) - in what sense is this player a dep for whichever of their two bands they're not registered for at the time? What if they're unable to be borrowed by one of these bands because the one they're registered to is in a higher section?
     
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