Copies of missing parts

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by startingsop, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. startingsop

    startingsop New Member

    Hi, I have been asked by a friend to get hold of some copies of missing band parts for various pieces of music:
    Euph parts for Boogie in the bandstand and Beyond the sea,
    2nd Horn Boogie in the bandstand
    2nd Trombone The Muppets
    and a few others.
    Am I allowed to just ask for these on this forum or are there copyright implications?
    These would be just for private study, not for performance.
    Any ideas?
  2. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    Yes there are copyright implications and almost certainly what you are asking for is not legal - try contacting the publishers who may be able to sell you individual parts for a few pounds each.
  3. startingsop

    startingsop New Member

    It's interesting - with academic papers you are allowed a single copy for private study, and with books you are allowed a certain percentage I believe. So for music there must be different rules. What about if you have a difficult page turn half way through a piece of music - are you allowed to copy a page to make it easier so long as you have the original? And what about ancient tiny music (like some of the old marches) - are you saying us oldies aren't supposed to enlarge them so that they are readable?
  4. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    There is an excellent Copyright fact sheet available on this forum which I'm sure someone will direct you to.
    Copyright law is very complicated but at it's simplest level under most circumstances you do not have the "right" to make a "copy".
    If in doubt contact the publisher/copyright holder and they may well give permission to make a copy for private study.
    There are also circumstances where enlargements are permitted.
  5. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    A cynic would suggest that because these are rather obscure parts and not all the same instrument, that maybe these aren't for private study.
  6. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Also, the Fair Dealing exception of 'private study' does not mean 'private practice'. It means study in terms of research - when writing an article or essay about the piece of music, for example. There is no difference between practice and performance in this case. All of these parts are available form the respective publishers, I would guess, and that's the best way to go.
  7. Ianroberts

    Ianroberts Well-Known Member

    These publishers have organised the closed shop better than a London Underground Train Driver.

    fartycat likes this.
  8. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    What about copying a part that is un-playable without making a 2nd copy?
    I was playing with a band at the weekend and my part (bass trombone) had a note tied accross a page turn, how is this playable without making a copy of the next page?

    I'm afraid I can't remember the piece , composer or publisher to name and shame !
  9. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    In practice I don't suppose anyone would really mind or take action against you.
  10. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Don't bank on it.
    stevetrom likes this.
  11. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    I'm sure they wouldn't but it does annoy me that publishers can get away with supplying unusable parts in this day when there are music type setting programmes that should make it possible to get this sort of thing sorted before being sold
    Bbmad likes this.
  12. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    The best thing to do is to contact the publisher - they would probably welcome the feedback and be able to give you permission to make a copy to cover this use.
  13. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    This sort of situation is covered in the Fair Dealing clauses and is perfectly OK. Whoever published it should be ashamed of themselves. No excuse for this sort of thing, as you say.
    Bbmad and midlandman like this.
  14. danielr

    danielr New Member

    Would fair use/fair dealing cover transcribing music if I wanted to change both clef and key?

    (I bought a trombone on a whim, I've only ever played brass instruments with valves, and only ever read in treble clef. I have learned slide positions in accordance with C being in 1st position (same as no valves on other brass) then I just add tube as the valves would, (a bit for a semi tone, twice that for a tone, and the semi tone and tone/minor third same as 1st 2nd 3rd valves, valve combinations are effectively the same as slide positions.)

    I joined a bad with saxaphones etc in it, there tenor trombone players seem to believe that their naturally tenor, and naturally bflat instruments are concert pitch bass instruments. (so the clef is bass, notes are all on ledger lines off the top of the stave, and everyone plays a C where I think a D is!)

    Sight reading bass clef, counting ledger lines off the top of the stave then thinking where would that note be on a treble stave, then that's got to be a full tone higher to change from my B flat to concert pitch, then and I'd want to be pressing those valves so I want that slide position, for music I've never heard is difficult...

    I can happily take the "pad" away and transpose it to suit my "short comings" but what are the legalities of this?

    (I'm not keen to move the slide positions in my mind, because that for me starts to close roads to getting back into brass banding. - e.g. if I start to believe that a C is where a D lives then I need to think a full tone down should I ever go back to brass banding.)
    (I expect that any brass band player can play a Dmajor scale, but don't want to start thinking that what they learned as the D major scale is actually the concert pitch C major scale and then adjust everything to suit that.)
  15. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    Strictly speaking the making of a copy - even hand written and changing the transposition - is not legal although I think it would be very unlikely to result in any action being taken.
    However I suspect you will find that after writing out a couple by hand you will decide that you can actually READ the parts and play them - it really isn't that difficult to switch between clefs but it does take a leap of faith to jump in and do it !
    I wish you luck - I've been there (many years ago) - but it is worth the effort in the longer term.
    PeterBale likes this.
  16. StellaJohnson

    StellaJohnson Active Member

    If you are desperately want this, then I suggest you go on the facebook page of 4barsrest and request them. They don't seem to be bothered about copyright over there
  17. boourns

    boourns Member

    Whilst I think publishers have a genuine and obvious grievance regarding the wholesale copying of music that we all know is rife in banding, I think it would be mean spirited of anyone to take issue with what is being discussed here. It is perfectly legal to take backup copies of software, music, movies, e-books etc that you already own, to guard against loss, theft or corruption, and I really can't see why it should be any different for sheet music (or indeed anything else it is feasible to copy). If I could take a backup copy of my car then you can be damn sure that I would.
    midlandman likes this.
  18. Euphonium Lite

    Euphonium Lite Active Member

    Actually Boourns - technically at least - you're wrong. Most music publishing licenses forbid any sort of replication - be it photocopy, scan, digital photo, pdf-ing or whatever. You don't own a set of music - you usually own a collection of paper with some printing on, which is your licensed copy of the music. If you lose said bit of paper, then you have to buy some more paper with same printing on. A similar thing exists with Microsoft Windows, where if you buy a disc of say Windows 10 home, you can only install it on one machine at any one time - if you want to install it on another at the same time, you have to buy another disc.
    Having said that, some music publishing licenses do allow you to print unlimited copies - Pennine's Brass Monkey junior band music for example, or Matt Kingston's Big Shiny Brass. But most won't.
    Whether of course a music publisher would bother researching who is copying their music, and more to the point try and enforce an action is another discussion. The legal costs involved are probably prohibitive where its only an odd part - and some publishing houses probably don't make it easy or cost effective to obtain replacement parts, which may complicate matters as the consumer is usually given any benefit of doubt in the court. However I would also guess its then down to the consumer to try and show they tried all possible legal routes before taking copies

    Finally - unfortunately the OP obviously shows their actual (illegal) intentions above. If something was for "private study" you would usually expect to see a single part listed rather than "2nd trom this" and "1st horn that". And you would probably want something with the tune such as Solo Cornet.
    Even allowing for that, he then shoots himself in the foot by saying the library is missing parts.....
    Accidental likes this.
  19. Euphonium Lite

    Euphonium Lite Active Member

    Again its an unlicensed copy. However if you had someone that say wanted to play a Bb Bass part on an Eb then and it was for a specific person, then whether the music company would really get anything out of enforcing any copy right is doubtful......ultimately depends on the publisher involved and the reasons for transposing. No publishing house really wants bad publicity....
  20. boourns

    boourns Member

    Apologies if I wasn't clear, but I didn't say it was legal to take backup copies of sheet music. However in my opinion there is no good reason that it shouldn't be.

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