Conductor Fees & PAYE

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by BoroBlue, Sep 17, 2008.

  1. BoroBlue

    BoroBlue New Member

    How do bands generally deal with paying conductors a fee with respect to the Inland Revenue?

    As with anything, anyone who earns any money has to pay Income Tax on those earnings so is it the conductor's responsibility to declare this income or is the band looked upon as an employer, and as such has to deduct the tax before payments are made?
     
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  3. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    That's a really good question.

    FWIW, except for the champ section, I doubt if any conductors/MDs declare their earnings from bands. Most of them probably have a day job and I suspect they feel they don't earn enough from wagging to bother the tax man with.

    In the champ section, especially with the big names, their MDs are on a much larger take and so they proably include their MD earnings in their tax forms. I suspect these high earners would be classed as self-employed and therefore have to do their own taxes.

    Another thing is that lots of bands are registered charities. I'm not sure, but doesn't that affect their tax status?

    Does anyone know any different?
     
  4. Bones

    Bones Member

    In respect to the charities question, even charities have employees and consultants so no difference to their tax status at all


    3 ways to do this.

    Pay them a set fee in essence a salary. Means the band is liable for employers NI etc
    Pay them a per rehearsals figure as a consultant, conductor liable for his own tax etc
    Dont pay them, or pay them "expenses" and as such no one is liable.

    Personally, dont ever get into the situation that the band is liable for ers NHI, pain in the backside.
     
  5. Di B

    Di B Member

    Bands do not generally deal with paye. A conductors salary from a band usually falls below the tax and NI limit anyway so they wouldnt need to make deductions.

    Any money earnt should legally be declared to the revenue and you should pay the appropriate tax. The amount of tax would be dependant on their other income.

    If you do not declare earnings to the revenue and they find you they can go back and claim up to 6 years of tax plus interest.

    It is worth mentioning that conductors should take out legitimate expenses from their earnings as they are effectively self employed. This can offset a lot of the tax element.
     
  6. Di B

    Di B Member

    Bands do not generally deal with paye. A conductors salary from a band usually falls below the tax and NI limit anyway so they wouldnt need to make deductions.

    Any money earnt should legally be declared to the revenue and you should pay the appropriate tax. The amount of tax would be dependant on their other income.

    If you do not declare earnings to the revenue and they find you they can go back and claim up to 6 years of tax plus interest.

    It is worth mentioning that conductors should take out legitimate expenses from their earnings as they are effectively self employed. This can offset a lot of the tax element.

    The personal tax of ANY paid band member is not affected whether the band is a charity or not.
     
  7. Rapier

    Rapier Supporting Member

    Strange first post. He's not a Tax Inspector is he? We all know what a money grabbing bunch this Government are.:cool:
     
  8. brassbandmaestro

    brassbandmaestro Active Member

    I think, as far as lower section bands go, from my experience, honoriums seem to be the order of the day. Usually, bands like mine for instance, cant afford the big fees, so the idea of honorariums are quite a useful policy to have.
     
  9. tubafran

    tubafran Active Member

    Considering the massive liabilities imposed on employers I suggest that it's very unlikely that there are actually any "employed" conductors out there. Insurance, holiday pay, health & safety, discrimination, issues relating to sacking etc. It's hard enough running a band without adding all the duties of an employer in to the pot.
     
  10. Mesmerist

    Mesmerist Well-Known Member


    Exactly what I thought as well! Its the Inland Revenue on tmp.:mad:
     
  11. BigHorn

    BigHorn Active Member

    More likely a guilty MD who's not declaring it ;)
     
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  13. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    Like I said, not many bands will pay their conductor more than peanuts apart from the champ section and their conductors are usually earning enough to pay tax on this anyway.
     
  14. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    I'll have to admit to being one that does - part of the issue for many conductirs is that they are often also working semi-pro as players. That was the position I found myself in and having been investigated by the IR some years ago when I was self employed, I found myself being squeaky clean in this regard.

    In the absence of a contract of employement, it's the MD's personal responsibility to declare.

    By the time expenses have been deducted; cost of travel to and from rehearsals & gigs, the wekly dry clean of the Tux, new dress shoes on a regular basis etc very little tax is paid on that part of my income.
     
  15. brassbandmaestro

    brassbandmaestro Active Member

    We better be careful when this member is around methinks!!
     
  16. Bass Trumpet

    Bass Trumpet Active Member

    As a conductor (and full time pro player) I am self employed and therefore declare my earnings whatever I'm doing. I see no difference where the money comes from.

    Just to clear any mis-understanding, should it arise, freelance players are employed by orchestras and are paid the full fee with no deductions. It's only contracted players (members of orchestras) that pay tax through PAYE. With this in mind, I see nothing wrong with bands 'employing' a conductor who is then responsible for declaring to the nice people at the IR.

    Come to think of it, if you take out travel, admin and beer, I don't think I make a profit from conducting!
     
  17. Will the Sec

    Will the Sec Active Member

  18. Just another one to throw on the fire.Would you have to pay tax if you make a CD and sell it?
     
  19. Di B

    Di B Member

    Is this off your own back? If so, yes, but you would pay tax on the net profit (ie. sales less legitimate expenses=net profit)

    If it is by the band then the income and expenses will be in the financial statements. As most bands are either charities or non-profit making organisations they would not pay tax, and even if they did it would be Schedule D at a guess not schedule E (which is the PAYE tax band)
     
  20. BoroBlue

    BoroBlue New Member

    Thanks all.

    I can assure you I am not "one of them" from the IR nor a guilty conductor but merely a "twitching" treasurer who doesn't want landing with a 6 year tax bill!!

    That is why I haven't revealed my band's identity just in case some inspector IS snooping on here!

    We used to pay £30 per rehearsal but found it easier to pay £300 per month which covers all rehearsals and engagements. In essence though this is more like a salary although we are not classing ourselves as employers - merely paying him a monthly honorarium as oppose to a per practice one.

    I have actually asked him to sign a statement which says that HE is responsible for declaring the earnings to the IR and not our association. Hopefully this covers our backsides!
     
  21. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member

    As others have said, many conductors will already be 'self employed' with respect to teaching or playing commitments and their conducting is merely an extension of that and as such will form part of their 'company accounts' or end of year tax statement.

    There are several sites giving (reasonably) clear guidance on what constitutes 'employment'. The rules generally fit better with the concept of a subcontracted builder \ painter & decorator but can be interpreted in other situations.

    Probably the best site to start on is THIS ONE.

    As you will appreciate, this does not clearly define the situation with a conductor.

    If a band auditions several people and chooses one as the person to conduct the band; tells the conductor what nights and where the band rehearses; whether 'full band' or 'sectional' rehearsals are to be held on any night and agrees that they will be paid (whether a 'fee' or nominally an 'honorarium') for two 2 hour reearsals a week and paid extra for contests \ gigs that would seem to pretty much fulfill the criteria for 'employment'.

    On the other hand, if a conductor agrees to take a band on the understanding that his mate will fill in for him if he's busy; pays for himself to go to a 'conductor's masterclass'; uses his own baton, DJ, shoes; agrees to extra sectionals at no charge if the band need some extra rehearsals to get them to a contest; tells the band which nights he is available to take rehearsals; and works as a teacher during the day and conducts a school band on saturday mornings he is almost fulfilling the criteria for self employment - though there are few conductors who can manage to "correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense".

    There is no definite right or wrong answer to how a conductor fits in, but from a band's point of view careful application of the guidelines above when drawing up a written 'agreement of engagement' along with a statement by the conductor that they are self employed and will be dealing with their own tax and NI contributions (ideally supported by Tax Ref and NI number) should protect the band from a future claim for employer's contributions from the revenue.
     
  22. Mesmerist

    Mesmerist Well-Known Member

     

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