Comments from the Owner....

Discussion in 'tMP Site News & Suggestions' started by TheMusicMan, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    I would like to see someone from the band in question come on here and do one of the following:

    a) provide proof of the alleged posts mentioned


    b) apologise publicly to John and the team of mods.

    And it needs to be done here because like many of you, I ceased subscription to the BB & BBW a long time ago.
  2. Trigger

    Trigger Member

    I agree with this and although I am certainly not in the business of commenting on other's bands, Trefor have made this a public matter, so they will need to deal with being a public topic of conversation now.

    It appears that Trefor's attempts to ridicule one of their players has just backfired. I have visited the link that hell raiser posted and although we cannot be sure if the rest of the allegations are true or not, the fact that they were completely wrong about tmp only serves to make the rest of their allegations lose credibility. If they were so upset about this player's 'behaviour', why have they compounded the situation by making it public? Seems a bit daft to me - airing your dirty laundry in public - and if they were intent on doing it, they should have at least made sure they were right first. Like Andywooler, I too would like to know what the members of the band have to say about this.

    I hate bitchy and bullying behaviour by any band, but unfortunately it happens. All I can say is, What goes around, comes around.

    Good on tMP for your professional response to this pathetic situation. I can say that having been on many other discussion forums, none are as well run and moderated as this one.
  3. hellraiser

    hellraiser Member

    Have the committee actually explained to the rest of the band what they have done, and why? I received the sacking letter minutes before band rehearsal 7.30 on the Friday, the night after the sacking decision was taken. No announcement was made in this Friday rehearsal regarding this decision which is one reason why the news was such a shock some of the members when I informed them. I wonder if the rest of the band have been told yet?

    (I'm not joking here, these are genuine serious questions.)
  4. aqua76

    aqua76 Member

    We had a situation along a similar vein in Scotland few years back, abusive comments were being made by an anonymous poster on one of our forums and eventually this rose to the upper echelons of Scottish banding (just above the 2nd baritone i think ;-) hehe)

    Anyway, it ended up being commented on in one of the SBBA executive meetings, (or possibly the AGM) Blame was pointed at the individual(they had since worked out, or implied they knew who theposer was), their band, and then finally the band to which the forum belonged.

    People wanted to close down the forums etc, and basically tried to licence/regulate the whole thing.

    Even now its a bit of a talking point....i know your situation John is slightly different but given we are in the technology age, every medum of communication is open to legal scrutiny.

    When you are posting on here or any forum, you are still a representative of your organisation and as such, as was the feeling in Scotland, any comments you make can reflect on them. Guess people just need to rememeber that anyone can be out there reading our banter, and maybe not take it in the lighthearted manner it is intended to be in!

    Phew, my longest post ever......enough already, im off to the rugby! :)

  5. Red Elvis

    Red Elvis Active Member

    Re the "Nazi" comment . As a member of several virtual communities its a well recognised fact that whenever one accuses another member or admin of acting like a "nazi" it's an argument of last resort and is generally treated with the contempt it deserves.

    tmp is a great site - we have fallings-out with each other from time to time and can argue the toss about all manner of band related stuff but generally the debate is carried on at a good level. Fair play to you john and all the admins/hosts for the work you do for us.
  6. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    Many thanks for your support. I agree with this comment except that the comment in question was not made on a www site, it was made and published in the Brass Band World monthly commercial publication.

    For everyone's info - I have called the editor, who apparantly was not in, and I was advised who would call me back.

    That was 5 days ago!!! no call yet.;) Any bets...???
  7. ronnie_the_lizard

    ronnie_the_lizard Active Member

    Yeah - my bet is that he's taking serious legal advice (possibly from Ken Livingstone's lawyers, but then again Ken lost his 'Nazi' comment case, so perhaps not.....)
  8. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    No, not really. I'm not holding my breath. That said, I wouldn't let them off the hook - if the editor wants to allow comments like that to be published he's got to be prepared tp take the stick for it.

    If anyone's got the address for "letters to the editor" (and if John thinks it would help)I'll happily send one of my best "annoyed of Manchester" letters written in green ink to express my disapproval!
  9. FlugelD

    FlugelD Member

    Personally, I reckon that letters are far to easily consigned to the round filing cabinet (you know, the one under the desk).

    However, in any business, someone has to answer telephone calls.

    TheMusicMan has a telephone number for the editor. tMP has over 6,000 members. Shouldn't we call to express our concern that the editor of BBW has failed to get in touch with the owner of a popular brass musicians message board that has, in our opinion, been unfairly dragged into a dispute that has nothing to with us or the MB? ;)

    (The arithmetic:

    Office hours, 9.00-5.00 = 8 hours, or 480 minutes, or 28,800 seconds.
    28,800 seconds/6000 members = 4.8.seconds/member)

    In simple terms, 500 tMP members - one twelfth of the registered users - could shut the BBW switchboard to incoming calls for an entire day, if they 'phone up and take just one minute to introduce themselves, explain why they're calling, and suggest that they'd like the matter cleared up amicably - assuming they all call on the same day, and redial if they get the 'busy' tone - continuously... ;) - costing them one days pay for a receptionist/telephonist to basically do nothing useful, with knock-on effect regarding their content, news, etc...

    Not that I'd in any way condone such anarchic behaviour... Let's face it, BBW would probably have an editorial fit regarding 'spammers' adversely affecting their legitimate business...

    Nah, buggrit, what's the number, John? And when should we start calling? ;)

    (Sorry, AD, green ink has had its day. How are you on green emails? :) )
  10. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Bring it on :D
  11. Bob Sherunkle

    Bob Sherunkle Active Member

    The two original themes in this thread have become somewhat confused.

    To summarize

    Some petty infighting in an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it as though tMP was involved in some way.

    This upset Mr MusicMan. No, I don’t know why either.

    Secondly an obscure columnist in BBW magazine referred to a time in the distant past when he had upset Mr MusicMan by suggesting that Moderators was a misleading term in the context of tMP and suggested that perhaps “Nazis” might be a more appropriate title. Whilst the use of such an imotive term might be considered insensitive it was fairly clear that it was used to indicate overly authoritarian behaviour rather than suggesting that the Moderators were planning to invade Poland.

    The column upset Mr MM again. His argument seemingly being that because his site is free to access it should be immune from any (even light hearted) criticism.

    A small posse of tMP diehards have thrown their hats into the ring to support Mr MM, rather aggressively in some cases, despite not following the Welsh media or having read BBW which they all think is rubbish without needing to read it.

    And now we have those who wish to instigate direct action against BBW for involving tMP in Welsh banding politics?

    I look forward to the first post pointing the finger at the obscure columnist for the current crisis in Welsh Rugby and castigating the Welsh language media for starting World War II.
  12. 2nd man down

    2nd man down Moderator Staff Member

    No, you appear to be just about the only person who doesn't know why, and I'm pretty sure that if somone publicly criticised something that you'd put a lot of time and effort in to you'd want your say about it too. Don't try and tell me you wouldn't, it's human nature, we all would.

    Obscure columnist or not, it was still published in a "not-so-obscure within the banding world" publication, and I don't think anyone said that tMP should be immune from any critisism, however accusing the mods of behaving like Nazi's for merely trying to keep a forum family friendly is hardly a suitable or appropriate comparison. Again, I don't think you'd like it said about you publicly either.
  13. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Bob, from reading your post it seems to be you who is confused.

    The (admittedly limited) readership of the publications in question may well have noticed it. This readership may or may not include some members of Welsh bands, especially those in strong welsh language areas e.g. Deiniolen or Llanrug. The point is, John and the rest of the team seem (to me) to pride themselves on carefully moderating this site and not allowing unsubstantiated malicious gossip about bands or players. To then be accused of precisely that by hack journalists who can't be bothered to take the same care even though they are paid to do so is annoying and insulting. It would upset me, too - even in an obscure publication with a limited readership.

    The use of the term "Nazis" is a personal insult to the team who do (in my opinion) a good job of running this site. Constructive criticism, light-hearted or otherwise, is fair enough, and from what I have seen of tMP is welcomed when it is made. Personal insults made in one of the movements leading magazines is not fair, especially when those insulted are denied the right of reply by the editor. Which leads me on to:

    I have been a member of the site only since November, and could hardly be described as a "diehard". My dad is a local councillor in North Wales and keeps me up to date with the Welsh media and although I don't take BBW (I've never liked the writing particularly) I have occasionally read someone else's copy on the coach or in the bandroom. I made a point of seeking out a copy to read this column for myself before posting. Since the editors of both publications have apparently declined to give John the right to defend his site (which he funds from his own pocket, let's remember) in print it would appear that the only recourse is for those who disagree or object to contact the editors directly. Why do you object to this? You were quick enough to defend your honour when you were accused (apparently wrongly) of being the famous Dr Murray Aitken (and your reply was not censored or edited in any way), yet you object to tMP wanting to similarly defend itself against slanderous misinformation and personal insults.

    Now you're just being silly. I just object to the current trend (not just confined to Golwg and BBW) for lazy hack journalists who can't be bothered to do research, or even learn to write decent copy, printing any old rubbish (including "witty" insults) and then hiding behind the "freedom of the press" when called to account for it. With freedom to print the truth comes responsibility to print the truth, a responsibility sadly lacking in these two publication in these instances.
  14. rutty

    rutty Active Member

    I'd much rather that Journalists were free to express themselves how they wished than have to worry about censorship. This was intended to be a "humourous opinion piece" right? Whether it worked out that way is debateable but I would defend his right to have his opinion in print as much as I would the expression of tMPers displeasure at such an article.

    Look, there's an opportunity here to get some parity. Someone could write an article about the benefits of a Brass Band community, perhaps one that maintains a family-friendly community. Perhaps it could be submitted to a certain Brass Band publication for print. Freedom of Expression can work both ways.

    I'm just playing Devil's advocate here. I certainly don't agree with what Dr Aitken has written. I love this site as much as anyone :)
  15. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Oh, now the can of worms is open ;) . Cleverer people than me are currently scratching their heads over this one! I'm not suggesting that journalists should be subject to censorship, simply that they should exercise professional judgement (self-censorship if you like) before they print any old drivel. And I agree that the piece in BBW was meant to be a "humorous opinion" and everyone has a right to their opinion, but when you are given the right to express your opinion in print you are also handed the responsibility to use a certain amount of judgement. Personally* I don't feel it's acceptable to be gratuitously insulting in the name of "humour", which is why I'm not a big Bernard Manning fan! I also think it's pretty poor that the BBW editor won't even return John's phone calls - an editor should have the cojones to defend what he's printed.

    *this of course is just my "opinion" ;)
  16. WhatSharp?

    WhatSharp? Active Member

    As has recently been seen with a set of cartoons printed in a newspaper, one persons humour is anothers insult. I don't disagree with you about censorship, however it is only good manners to impose a degree of personal censorship. Escpecially when your views are going into print, humourous or not (print is not a good medium for satirical humour, the emotions of the writer are not always clear).

    But would they print it? they seem very reluctant to respond to MMs attempts to contact them. I'm suprised at their shortsightedness, especially when tMP probably has a wider circulation then BBW. Certainly I know more band members who log on to tMP than get BBW, not a good way to encourage more readership.
  17. rutty

    rutty Active Member

    Oh I totally agree with this. I think it was Spiderman's Uncle that said "with great power comes great responsibility" or something like that. That stands with the Cartoon fiasco too - it showed spectacularly poor judgement to print those but print them they did.

    I don't think you can blame the BBW for printing what they did but they should allow redress via a submitted article or comment.
  18. hellraiser

    hellraiser Member

    I hear that those who are making the allegations against me are continuing to do so locally (I have witnesses). Yet they declined an invitation to go on Welsh national radio and have not shown up on this website to explain themselves. Why?

    I believe, from what I've seen and heard, that the allegations are based on "quote-mining". There's good links on this practice here-:

    The article written by the band to Golwg magazine consisted of several misquotations and selective quotations. Quote mining, basically.

    As the above link explains, if one can quote mine the bible and come up with "The Lord... is evil" or "There is no God", then it just goes to show what can be done with any written material. If you've written hundreds of posts on tMP then that's a big mine for those who would wish to quote mine you.

    Quote mining, in my opinion, is morally reprehensible. But it is something that all users of tMP and the internet generally should be aware of. Sadly, there are people out there who view the things you write as material to quote mine, and won't show you the respect of accepting the context in which your comments were made. It would be impossible to moderate a website to avoid allegations made by quote miners, because they could use absolutely anything you write- you'd just have to shut the site down!

    The only way you can be safe from quote miners is to not write anything at all on the internet. If bandspeople took those precautions, there would be no tMP and without tMP the banding scene would be poorer.

    For those of us who enjoy discussing our hobby/passion with others, via the internet, then we must stand strong against those who wish to undermine such discussion.

    I sincerely hope that some good can come of this awful situation. One good outcome would be that a strong message is being sent out that quote mining is not something that the banding online community is willing to tolerate- any aspiring quote miners take note.
  19. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    I don't think anyone has the right to accuse someone of something, however banal, without a shred of proof.

    It seems to me that there has been a lack of justice in all this.

    And for those who think it's not important what is published in "an obscure Welsh band which apparently had nothing to do with tMP was reported in places no-one would have noticed it" - just a real example for you.

    My school band is being affected by misinformation being promulgated by individuals in an obscure local band. This is resulting in children in that band being reluctant to join said school band. Result - school band is really only a quartet! - And that is only through word of mouth.

    John has every right to protest about misinformation given out to journalists - no matter how obscure - by a band, no matter how obscure, which might ultimately reflect on his reputation.

    I don't think accusations of Nazism, however humourously conceived by their perpetrator would be viewed as humourous by the recipient.

    I have always found all of the mods on this forum to work for the best interests of the majority of the members. And all of them have my support - even when they mod me. In most cases, I have deserved it.

    Can we now start to get on with the rest of our lives, or are we going to continue having a Tessa Jowl moment for the rest of the year?
  20. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    UPDATE: I have now received a positive and satisfactory communication with a full explanation from the Editor of BBW, and we are currently discussing how we can move on and close this matter in a win-win situation. More soon...

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