Cheating is ok, because it has always happened (and apparently everyone does it)

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Bbmad, Jun 17, 2015.

  1. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

  2. stevetrom

    stevetrom Well-Known Member

    If everyone breaks the rules, maybe they are not very good rules?

    there is very little money involved, whit Friday & butlins apart, so relax all the silly registration rules and let us all play for fun
  3. John Brooks

    John Brooks Well-Known Member

    I think it's a commentary on society today. Speed limits on roads are only a "suggestion" unless you go really, really fast or do something really, really stupid. Some rules are still inviolable, such as murder. Some people (eg: Canadian senators) feels it's OK to cheat on your expense account. I agree that some rules are not very good. That could be because they were written in and for a different age and are no longer realistic (eg: speed limits on major Canadian highways remain at 100kph but there's an unwritten "rule" that says if you're not weaving in and out or otherwise driving in an unsafe manner, the limit is 120kph). So maybe it's simply time to review the rules and bring them up to date by reflecting the reality that is banding today.
  4. Euphonium Lite

    Euphonium Lite Active Member

    I guess the first question needs to be not should we have the rules but why do we have the rules

    Whilst the current method is not perfect – and there may not be a perfect method – it does help level the playing field slightly. With the current system, bands located in areas where there are a high concentration of bands – especially higher section bands – could hold a serious advantage over areas where there are very few bands and those that are there are all lower section. For example if we abolished registration altogether and made things a free for all, a 4[SUP]th[/SUP] section band in Yorkshire or the Midlands could bring in a player from – say Black Dyke – for a lower cost than a band from Cornwall or Scotland, simply because of the lesser mileage involved. That’s not to say of course that either band would or wouldn’t go down that road, but there is an imbalance. For many local contests it probably wouldn’t make much difference, but there are a few where bands from all over the country compete, and its important that geography doesn’t create an issue .

    Currently – for the nationals – the hoops players have to jump through to transfer for short periods of time (ie less than a year) deters the majority from transferring for a single area or finals, even though it’s within the current rules that you can do so. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen, and of course doesn’t take into account illegal (dual) registrations. The latter is probably impossible to police without some sort of electronic system of registration which would perhaps deter some but again could be circumvented if players or bands really wanted – someone that looks like x but lives in the next town could be a dual registration with a false address or a genuine likeness that would be banned from playing when they were 100% genuine. The cost of implementing new cards and equipment would also be very high.

    Overall I think for the national contest – and certain others such as Butlins – the current system whilst not perfect is as good as it is ever likely to be. The stakes (either because of grading or prize money) are just too high to ignore. However I’d like to see some of the more local contests abandon registration – my own local Association contest actually doesn’t use cards – just a signature sheet and players can only appear for one band. It’s possible to bring in players from higher up if you want to but most bands didn’t. I understand Jeremy Wise’s new contest at Milton Keynes is also registration free and bands essentially policed it themselves. Locally we probably see enough of each other to recognise “ringers” when they come in. Many contests have unregistered sections and to remove the need to register is really just extending that – perhaps making contests “open” rather than strict split sections would probably help.
  5. simonium

    simonium Member

    I may very well be wrong but is it not possible for a player to register with a band for a contest, then cancel the registration immediately after the contest and then re-sign with a different band in the space of time it takes to get the registration processed? It seems to be relatively common in the WoE.
  6. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    I think there's a limit on how frequently they can change registrations, though?
  7. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    "everyone" doesn't break the rules though.... its fairly evident that most players and bands do actually manage to stick to them without too many issues.

    The simplest answer is that rules are there because the contest organisers want them there!
    Although they now operate completely independently, both the Nationals (Kapitol) and the British Open have very similar rules and registration systems, as do many of the local associations around the UK who run their own contests.

    And its not just the organisers - in my experience it has become very apparent that there are at least as many banders who would like to see stricter registration/contesting rules as those who would like them to be further relaxed. Its extremely difficult to strike a balance which keeps both extremes of opinion happy, and imho the current 'status quo' does the job pretty well.

    Under the current National rules a player can change registrations twice in a 12 month period (or maybe more if they have really good grounds for appeal), but they can't return to a band they were previously registered with for at least 6 months. The British Open have a similar rule.
    Cancelling or transferring a registration, reading the registry rules and keeping an eye on dates aren't exactly a huge hoop to jump through.... its really a very simple process.


    If the rules (or lack of rules) allow anyone to play with any band, then the so-called "ringers" are allowed and there's nothing you can do about it even if you do recognise them - there would be no self-policing because there is nothing TO police. If people have an issue with so-called ringers, then they would want some rules in place to deal with it.... :confused:

    In our local area, we have fairly flexible day transfer rules designed to help more bands get onto the contest stage. A lot of bands use them, but the flipside of that coin is folks calling for day transfers to be scrapped and the rules to be tightened up even more..... (anyone read the Soapbox on 4br back in April?) Its impossible to keep everyone happy!
  8. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    My opinions on this are well know - I would scrap registration tomorrow! And for reasons that I consider sound:

    1) If I play with 2 bands, pay subs to both, rehearse with both and perform concerts all year with them, I am am member of 2 bands. I would expect the right to partake in all activities for both bands, including contests.

    2) If a band bills itself as "xyz regional champions" on a concert poster but turns up with a very different set of players, are they conning the public or not? (Personally, I don't have an issue with that: Joe Loss used to put our 3 or 4 bands a night under his name, there are people who play both with the LSO and the BBC Symphony).

    3) quote "rules are there because the contest organisers want them there" - contests like the Nationals are run with no thoughts about the day to day activities of the band - they have no remit over that and don't care if the people who play regularly with that band for concerts are not registered with them - just don't turn up on stage without the right card huh?

    4) 1 or 2 "ringers" do not guarantee any success any more than 1 or 2 unregistered players turning up on the day with limited rehearsal time.

    5) I hear most complaints about this from Championship section bands. For the rest of us, contesting is a part of our banding lives, not the be all and end all.

    6) I am allowed dual nationality and could get into pretty much any country I like with either. But contesting is more important than that sort of thing of course.......

    7) the current national rules allows 2 transfers a year - there are 2 national contests a year - do the math! If you can't get a player registered then you don't know how to make the system work for you! Which means that within the rules, it is already pretty much a free for all so why bother?

    There is a reason why B&H bought the registry and why Kapitol continue to this day - and it's not just about policing contests. Back in Ethel Behan's day, the revenue from the registry was, I am told by a reliable source, far in excess of the cost of running it. It's as much about money and power still today.

    In my opinion (disagree by all means but as my opinion, it is correct for me!), the over focus on heavily regulated contesting is partially to blame for the decline in banding today. Things are much simpler where I live now - I signed nothing last week at the Dutch Open for example. (although there are rules for some European contests regarding pro players which includes full time music students - that would hurt a lot of bands based around the music colleges in the UK!)
  9. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Absolutely agree with you on point 1) Pauli. It is a tricky one, which the local day transfer rules do help with, but obviously can cause an issue for some players for the Nationals

    Disagree on point 2) though. If I'm paying £15+ for a ticket to see the xyz "Champion" band then I want to see the band (or at least a huge majority of) that won those prizes, not half of that band padded out with local deps.

    Interestingly, I hear many, many more complaints about this from 1st & 2nd section bands, not the top section. And I don't personally know any top section bands or banders for whom contesting is in fact the be all and end all. Obviously we've had very different experiences on that one!

    (FWIW, my first post is just info based on my own knowledge and experience... not necessarily what I personally believe ;))
  10. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    Indeed = and is very common in the lower sections - we both know many people in my old area who regularly turn out and rehearse with more than one band.

    In a way, you are actually agreeing with me then ;) - there is no registration for concerts and the only way you can possibly get close to the concert band appearing on the contest stage is to remove the barriers.

    As your signature states that opinions are you own, care to share what you personally believe then? Having served on both the scaba Executive and the Regional Committee in the past, I do appreciate the difficulties in having to follow the party line. However, as you probably know more than most, that never stopped me! The current scaba registration process came from work I did many years ago in trying to scrap local registration. It was the best compromise I could get out of the then COSEBBA organisation whose chair had his head so deeply buried in the sand on this topic you could just about see his toes. (I wasn't even allowed to speak at the meeting as I wasn't the official COSEBBA scaba rep!)
  11. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Just let Grimethorpe/Black Dyke win everytime, that way everyone is happy?
  12. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    I play for two bands on different instruments. I find it hard to understand why I am not allowed to play at contests for both bands in that case, even though the band I play bass for is 3rd section and the one I play euph for is 4th section.
  13. owain_s

    owain_s Member

    You'd have to add a whole new layer of bureaucracy to the registration system, to record not just who is playing for each band but which instrument/part is being played, and then also cross-checking these records against all other contests....given how the current organisations cope with the existing systems, good luck persuading them to accomodate your situation! :p
  14. DocFox

    DocFox Retired

    NO registration would be perfect, but I would argue that without rules and registrations, banding would really fall off. You can't have a football match without a referee, no matter if you like his yellow cards or not.

    No contest that I know of doesn't have rules. Should we have a free for all Olympics? Lots of complaining about registration and judging goes on. It will never go away. Drop the rules and only a few bands will compete. 4th and 3rd division bands would play for the community and would never worry about contesting.

    In American Football, the rules are driven by the idea that any team can win on any given Sunday (most of the games are played on Sunday). They idea is, they do not want to have the same teams win over and over. And by and large it works. Hardly a Sunday goes by win some crappy team (say a 2 and 8 team) beats a good team (9 and 1). An undefeated team has not happen since 1973!

    Such rules keep listener coming and fans coming.

    But I am only a Yank trying hard to promote banding -- especially in the US.
  15. Tom-King

    Tom-King Well-Known Member


    On the one hand, people don't want too many rules and too much hassle about contesting.
    And on the other, people (perhaps subconsciously) want rules in place and enforced so that things appear to be fair.

    Some people don't want to contest WITH too much regulation - because its too much hassle.
    Some people don't want to contest WITHOUT regulation - because they're concerned about unfair playing fields.

    Never going to keep everyone happy. And never going to prevent these two sides from arguing with each other (politely of course).

    I don't personally mind either way.
  16. mikelyons

    mikelyons Supporting Member

    But, in the 21st century, with a properly designed database system, this could be done in a matter of seconds!
  17. Euphonium Lite

    Euphonium Lite Active Member

    Agreed – it could work in theory anyway

    Easiest way would be to move from the current system where essentially the band “owns” the registration to where individuals are registered and affiliated to a band or bands. The key difference from the current system in actual reality is that the individual holds their registration card, not the band.

    Essentially the registry could then issue contest organisers (or band secretaries) a list of players affiliated to their band. Players affiliated to 2 would come up on 2 lists. Contests could then use the membership lists to sign off registrations (as many do now) rather than stamping cards.

    However this raises a couple of issues – one would be how you monitor guest players (eg do you allow them), and two would be how you “grade” those players. For example Mr (or Ms) X plays with a championship section band on back row, but plays principal cornet for a 4[SUP]th[/SUP] section band. Is the player in question a 4[SUP]th[/SUP] section player (in which case they could be borrowed by anybody) or a championship section player (in which case only other top section bands can borrow them)? Or could registering for more than 1 band eliminate the need for deps altogether?

    Personally I’d be against this from the level playing field perspective at least for the major contests, but that’s just me. I can see Mike’s case – for him at least – would be equally justified
  18. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Is that what YOU think?
    Or what you think either Pauli or I were saying ? (in which case you are WAY off the mark.....) :-?
  19. Pauli Walnuts

    Pauli Walnuts Moderator Staff Member

    Yup, totally off the mark! Mind you, with Dyke's recent disqualification history, maybe having them in our section wouldn't be such a tragedy after all! [\toungincheekmode]

    I would suggest you all monitor the ads and announcements immediately post the next regionals - people in the top 2 sections are already moving about so this level playing field of consistent band members on stage is already a myth.
  20. Cornet23

    Cornet23 Member

    There is a lot of hypocrisy in banding. Cheating is 100% fine if it's helpful to your band - but if another band beats you in a contest and they cheated then that's not okay at all!

    I actually left a band when I was younger for that reason. There was a bit of drama at a contest about a registration issue that went on for months, and the band who "cheated" got away with it. Then our next contest our secretary decided to bend the rules in exactly the same way, forgetting how much she had kicked off when it was another band who did it.

    I am now in a band who take the rules seriously. If you choose to enter contests, you should play by the rules. You do not have any God-given right to be in a contest, so if you choose to do it, do it right.

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