bands using players from the European Union

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Anonymous_user, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. Anonymous_user

    Anonymous_user New Member

    I have noted from this forum that Black Dyke used a player from The champions of belgium. (Bert) soprano

    Im not having a go at Black Dyke as it is within the rules so good look to them. I also note that other bands are starting, or have done in the past filled empty seats with players from the European Union.

    In the day of rankings I dont think it is fair to have players from other bands in Europe to help out british bands to gain ranking points.

    I think this "Loop Hole" should be closed as soon as.

    What do people think?
     
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  3. Anno Draconis

    Anno Draconis Well-Known Member

    Couldn't give a monkeys, frankly. It's relevant to, what, 10 or 12 UK bands? And as far as I know Belgium and the Netherlands don't have a registry system like the UK, so pan-European registration couldn't really work anyway. Even if it did, there are players from Japan, Australia, NZ and the US to consider as well.
     
  4. Jan H

    Jan H Moderator Staff Member

    Hello,

    This topic has been discussed a couple of times already before, most recently in this thread:
    http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31585&highlight=ringers


    I have posted my personal remarks already in that there, but I'll summarize again. Belgium has a registry, but much more flexible than the British one.
    The Netherlands and as far as I know Norway don't have registry. Bands just have to send the contest organizers a list of the players that will be competeing, and that's it.

    In fact most people here always react with great disbelief when they're told about the British registration system. The British system would never be accepted in the Netherlands, because many of the lower section bands rely on their corner seats being filled by players who are also members of higher section bands. this are not "ringers", but regular members of these lower section bands!. In Holland, most lower section bands are local village bands, while the top bands are more like regional bands, that group the best players from a certain region.

    There is one important difference in belgium and Norway compared to the UK: For the Belgian and Norwegian championships no foreign players are allowed, unless they have been living in the country for a certain time or (in the Belgian case) if they live within a certain distance of the country border (so Dutch players who are a regular member of a Belgian band, can compete in the Belgian Nationals).

     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2008
  5. andylockett86

    andylockett86 Member

    doesn't matter one bit. is it Bert Van Thienen? everyone says he's a top player and by bringing him in it can only be good for the standard of the competition. he might even have given the lad who dyke have recently put on sop a few tips, so it probably works for everyone in the long term
     
  6. leisa

    leisa Active Member

    Brass.Boy, I agree with you, fair enough if people do it and disagree but in my opinion it is bending the rules and i agree it should be closed
     
  7. Hi,

    I can only say that it's allowed, and that I really enjoyed the experience of making music with the world fameous band! :)

    However there are a lot of bands who try to get some belgian (or dutch) players to help them out for the contest, and not only in the highest division! But... I think that every band has to decide it theirselves...

    Regards,

    Bert
     
  8. andylockett86

    andylockett86 Member

    haha guess it was Bert Van Thienen then!!
     
  9. leisa

    leisa Active Member

    I don't think its as bad in champ section to be honest, i still disagree with it but the players in champ section are good anyway so it doesn't make much of a difference or not if they get an english or european player in.
     
  10. andywooler

    andywooler Supporting Member

    Who knows, maybe I'll get the call to Belgium whilst Bert is off with Dyke! ;)

    I'm also happy that the guys down at Tescos who clean my car are not English - at least they are there and will do the job!
     
  11. towse1972

    towse1972 Active Member

    Noticed from the forum? lol
    You were there competing Simon!
     
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  13. paddo

    paddo Member

    In the top section I agree, there should be no difference. But when it comes down to the lower sections then who knows! Not having a dig at any band just my own thoughts.
     
  14. agentorange

    agentorange Member

    Surely Bert must have been registered with Dyke to be able to perform? If that's the case then where's the problem?

    Is the issue the fact that Dyke have brought in a 'ringer' (covered in other threads!) or that he's from another country? I hope it's not the latter - that would open up a huge can of worms (racism?!!).

    And how many other bands don't bring in players for contesting purposes, irrespective of nationality?

    I really don't see a problem with bringing in any player when required .

    Incidently, we had a Canadian, a New Zealander and a Dutch girl in the ranks last year. Should we have asked them to sit in the audience whilst we competed with only British born players? I sincerely hope not.
     
  15. leisa

    leisa Active Member

    Yeah.

    I think the point is that at the moment (I am not saying any band did this by the way before anyone jumps down my throat) you can borrow the 5 (?) deps from the UK and the loopole is that then on top of that you can borrow who knows what number of foreign players as well.

    I personally don't think it really makes a difference with Dyke but I think the loopole in rules could really get someone taking the mick at some point.

    Edit: I don't actually know if you can borrow UK deps or not for the areas?! But surely if not then that rule is there for a reason...?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  16. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    I have read this one with interest. I agree with other posters who say that although not breaking the rules it is bending them somewhat.

    There is a loophole here that needs to be closed. The Scottish registry is independent of the English and Welsh registries but we work closely with both in the spirit of the rules to govern cross border transfers and guesting e.g. a player cannot be registered with both a Scottish and an English band at the same time.

    In Berts case, simply because that is the most recent, he obviously must be registered as a player with Dyke but he is also, though not registered, a recognised principal player with the European Champions Willebroek. Now we cannot force registration upon other countries who operate in a different manner but perhaps Jans suggestion of a residency qualification is worth looking at.

    I am a firm believer that as long as brass bands wish to contest then there must exist rules to govern that contesting, otherwise all you end up with is a free for all.
     
  17. Beesa

    Beesa Member

    I remember the furore over Football bringing in foereign players (are we allowed to use the word "foreign" or is it one of those non-PC words?).

    Ossie Ardiles was the first I remember, playing for Spurs. Then Chelsea had a team with not one British player.

    In this cosmopolitan world, to be successful it's a case of get 'em where you can.
     
  18. johnmartin

    johnmartin Active Member

    I have no problem with using foreign players but I do have a problem with registering players who play full time with other bands in countries where there is either have no registration or very lenient registration systems.

    Here's one for you then. What would happen if a Norwegian or a Belgian player happened to also be registered as a player with a British band and both bands ended up playing at the European. Ok, the rules might allow it but is it morally right?
     
  19. Despot

    Despot Member

    It would be impossible to police rules based on residency. All they would need is a UK address. Who's going to check it's if it's valid or not.

    In an Irish contest, I remember one band that brought in 6 UK players with "c/o The Bandroom,........" as their addresses on their cards. Wasn't against the rules, and even it it was, I'm sure they'd have just invented an address.
     
  20. JR

    JR Member

    Correct - this is the point.

    If it is not possible for the Whitburn or Kirky or Scots Co-Op sop player to double up playing for an English band why should it be possible for the excellent Mr Thienen? - presumably he'll appear at Cambridge for Willebroek as if nowt has happened...

    Didnt he appear with Horden a couple of years ago?, then YBS?
    And there was his mate Raf!

    jR
     
  21. SuperCat

    SuperCat Member

    On the subject of foreigners (and I think that I have put a similar point on the ringers thread), I think the point isn’t that English people don’t want foreign people playing in our bands and at contests, its that people believe it to be morally wrong to bring players in that wouldn’t ordinarily play in that band just to get round the transfer rules for the regionals/nationals. That’s not being racist, its just that it can only be done with foreign players, as John Martin pointed out that the Scottish Registry don’t allow registrations both sides of the border. Perhaps this loophole should be closed.

    If Dyke are apparently just using this Paul Duffy for concerts and Bert for the contests, it doesn’t say much for what Dyke think about their new sop player does it?

    Apparently Yorkshire Co-op fielded a few foreign players on Sunday in the 1st Section and it’s hard to say whether this is fair or not because I don’t know what section the borrowed players are in, in their home Country. It could be argued that they are at a disadvantage if these players can’t attend many rehearsals, however, if they are from a top flight foreign band then maybe that then isn’t fair to other bands in that section.

    I think for a band to get foreigners in they would have to be desperate, as surely no one would choose to only get players in at the last minute just to get around the rules, even if these players are better than the general standard of the section the band is competing in.
     
  22. I understand both sides of the arguments for this, however, taking the championship bands out of this argument I don't see anything wrong in bringing overseas players in when you have exhausted all other avenues to find a replacement. If you cannot find a replacement or someone to play a specific part, no one locally or nationally wants to help or play then one has to cast ones net further afield. Bringing overseas players in does not mean you are going to win the contest. Anyway - we recently lost a couple of player to another band that 'persuaded' them to join. Had we the finances of a big band I would certainly would have looked to bring players from abroad.
     

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