Band Photocopying

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Al, Nov 13, 2010.

  1. Al

    Al Member

    I was at a band recently where I fixed the photocopier. In the last 3 years the machine has produced nearly 10,000 copies. I don't think the band does anything unusual, maybe copies for the occasional contest, some copies to take music home and I think the march book is all copies. The junior band tend to take maybe 20 copies to take music home occasionally. I know they have photocopied programmes for an annual concert too.

    But even so.....10,000 in 3 years!

    Some in the band reckon that this amount is ok and I wonder what do other bands think?
  2. Old Hornblower 33

    Old Hornblower 33 New Member

    I wonder whether Al is jumping to conclusions? I suspect that the Band is using the photocopier to produce newsletters and information sheets for members; play lists for Band concerts for the band and for audiences where formal programmes are not produced; agendas and minutes of meetings and copies of all all the multifarious bits of paper needed to run a Band. And I suspect that some of the members are using the photo-copier for personal use.

    There is close to 1100 days in three years, which by my rudimentary arithmetic works out at between 9 and ten copies a day. This is quite easy to achieve just running the band. The inference that I read in Al's post, of widespread breach of copyright is, I feel, unfair.
  3. Al

    Al Member

    Thanks for the reply.

    I'm not concerned with copyright and I am sure the band are more or less covered there, so apologies if it seemed I was inferring anything.

    It is just seems an awful lot of copying. The way you have put down your thoughts kind of clarifies it a bit, so thanks.
  4. simonium

    simonium Member

    The inference is, of course, that brass bands photocopy music illegally, share music willy nilly and play arrangements that are of course unauthorised and clearly illegal. Luckily it's been confirmed that none of this actually happens. Phew.
  5. DaveBBb

    DaveBBb Member

    I know of an arranger/composer who really struggles to make anything (£'s) for his efforts and would ask Bands to consider people like him when they photocopy music. Every time they do it they are stealing from a colleague. Think on!!
  6. DMBabe

    DMBabe Supporting Member

    But surely it's a different thing when bands photocopy sets of music they have purchased to allow players to take parts away without the fear of them getting lost or to allow extra players parts to practice? Or should we be forking out for second sets just in case? Surely its not comparable to "borrowing" a set from another band then copying it and giving it back to them thus not buying it legitimately..... :confused:
  7. Souter

    Souter Member

    Could it be that they were gifted or purchased a 2nd hand photocopier????? 10,000 copies in 3 years equates to say (basing this on 40 pages for a set of music & score) 250 different sets of music - must be some size of library. My band has been going for 125+ years and we are only up to 1200 different sets.
  8. DaveBBb

    DaveBBb Member

    In response to DMBabe: all I ask people to do is think about what they doing and understand that there are consequences for private sector arrangers/composers.
  9. DMBabe

    DMBabe Supporting Member

    As opposed to public sector arrangers/composers? ;)
  10. ploughboy

    ploughboy Active Member

    are they under threat of cuts?
  11. Despot

    Despot Member

    I know we get 5,000 flyers printed every year, but we get company to do that for us. It seems very high but within the realms of possibility, depending on useage, and especially if they have a youth band.

    If they have say 40 kids, if they were to get a booklet of 20 parts twice a year, thats half that figure accounted for. Or the teachers may be copying their own handouts or workbooks. I know one of our teachers uses a workbook she produced herself. It all adds up!
  12. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    It does indeed account for half the figure, but you are still not allowed to do it!! :)
  13. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    As far as I understand copyright law, unless explicitly stated otherwise, you are buying a set of music - rather than the right to do with it as you will.

    There are some music publishing companies who specifically produce music where users buy a CD of PDF parts, and a license Key for that CD. This gives the owner a personal license to print as many copies of the various parts for their own use as they like. This can be really useful with irregular instrumentation/size of bands, such as youth bands or community ensembles - but it's also a whole different ballpark to photocopying parts/scores/whole sets.

    As regards a previous point about unauthorised arrangements, alas, banding is rife with them. Yes, it doesn't help that it's often near impossible to get copyright on certain pieces, but then it is within the copyright holder's rights to refuse for whatever reason they like so there's no way round that.

    That said, (other than one piece that I simply can't get a response of any sort on no matter what I try,) I've never found it too difficult to get copyright permission for a couple of copies of the odd piece here and there. Yes, it might cost you twenty quid or so, but that's a LOT less than the potential fines you could incur for an illegal arrangement! If you're going to play it out - get it sorted before you do. In my experience it's also a wonderful motivator to ensure that your arrangement has the necessary degree of accuracy and typesetting before you print it.....

    Oh, and allow yourself plenty of time for the copyright permission to come through. I remember possibly the biggest opportunity of my (so far short) arranging career being a cornet solo I'd arranged for Grimey. I'd been granted permission to arrange, and had put all the final touches to the piece in accordance with the soloist's requests - and then spent the week before the premier getting more and more nervous because I'd not had the final copyright confirmation through! Eventually I had about 32 hours to spare, but i got a few grey hairs from that one I can tell you. The potential for embarrassment would have been enormous....
  14. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    Sorry for the bump. But the dreaded Photocopy debate has reignited at work. Is the bottom line, officially no copys of music are allowed by anyone of normal music even if you own an original set and even if the copys are for practicing purposes only? We have a 4 bands all 50 strong the implications financially of buying up to 4 sets are....well....crippling......My kids WILL lose music!!! On a side note, are publishers not missing a big trick by not offering split sets and multi-parts for various instruments. Ive got about 8 2nd trombones for instance. Could publishers not help us not to break the law by offering more customized purchasing powers? BTW. I couldn't access the copyright fact sheet. Is the link dead?
  15. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Active Member

    Yes - it is illegal. If you have 4 bands and want to use the same music for each band at the same time then you would need 4 sets.
    Some internet puplishers like Big Shiny Brass and myself allow you to print extra copies for your own/your own band's use although I would suggest that 4 sets would be pushing even our idea of reasonable practice.
  16. Anglo Music Press

    Anglo Music Press Well-Known Member

    Well, it's illegal without permission. Many publishers, if you ring them, will understand this problem very well and give you permission to do this, with or without a small charge. If publishers put extra parts into sets, then bands who have a normal instrumentation will complain they are paying for parts they don't need.
  17. scotchgirl

    scotchgirl Active Member

    In the past I've come across parts that have been so written on I couldn't read them (previous players - tut tut), and using an eraser just results in you rubbing half the print away also. I've found most publishers will happily sell you a copy of whatever part you need for a couple of quid, and I don't think that's too unreasonable price to pay given that it was someone's responsibility in the band to make sure music is looked after.

    I would imagine that it is the same when it comes to asking for a few extra parts.
  18. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    I just had a thought which I'm genuinely not sure of the answer to.

    A lot of early marches, overture transcriptions, early test-pieces etc are pretty old now - often over 100 years. And clearly soem bands out there will have 1st generation band-sets.

    Is there a point in time at which a particular impression of a published score legally becomes lawful quarry for the photocopier?
  19. What is your opinion
  20. Most music publishers will be happy to help you gain the amount of copies you need, whether that be via photocopying them or they can supply extra parts. They may of course charge you for the privilage or let you photocopy a part for free, each company is different.

    With our junior band music label "Brass Monkeys" - we allow unlimited photocopying of any part supplied with the set of purchased music. You automatically purchase the licence to do this when you purchase the music, so there is no need to contact us to request to make copies.

    All the lower end brass instruments are provided in bass clef as well as the traditional brass band treble clef, so you do not need to transcribe these should you have players from an 'orchestral' background. To protect our music, the name of the purchasing ensemble is printed on every copy of the parts and score. Therefore, although we trust that our customers only photocopy the music use with their own players etc, if they do pass the music onto other groups/bands, it is clear that they're illegal copies as they will not have the new groups/bands name printed on.

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