Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Pennine Music Publishing, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. Pennine Music are proud to present a new feature that is essential for all you arrangers out there...


    With music notation software now being readily available, more and more brass band musicians are turning their hands to arranging music for their band – and doing a very good job of it too!

    As you should be aware, in the UK, copyright exists on any piece of music whose composer has not been deceased for over 70 years. Any arrangement of music still in copyright, MUST have permission from the copyright holders, otherwise the arrangement is illegal and the copyright holders can take legal action against you. Even if your arrangement is not for profit, not for public performance, not for sale or only for private performance, the copyright holders must still license the arrangement.


    A fantastic guide with further information on copyright can be found in the tMP Copyright Fact Sheet here -

    Due to all this legal work, many of the budding arrangers within the brass band movement either don’t go ahead with their idea for the arrangement, or worse, proceed to make their arrangement without obtaining the correct permissions from the copyright holders.

    Now, PENNINE MUSIC LICENSING is making it as easy as possible for you to gain a licence to arrange the music you want to!

    Over the last 6 years, Pennine Music has gained invaluable knowledge and connections within the music industry. We now want to put these to good use and help all the arrangers out there do their work easily and legally!

    For a one-off fee of £5 (per arrangement), PENNINE MUSIC LICENCING will sort out all of the legal red tape that has held arrangers back in the past from obtaining all the correct paperwork, making their arrangements legal.

    Whether you wish to just make an arrangement for private performance in a rehearsal room, or for a public performance, our fee does not change.

    For more information and FAQ's etc, please visit -

    If you need any more help or advice, please ring us on 0785 251 9763. We will be more than happy to answer any questions and have a general chat with you about copyright, which we know can be very confusing & sometimes frustrating!!!
  2. Andrew Norman

    Andrew Norman Member

    What a GREAT scheme - well done Pennine for coming up with this.
  3. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    The scheme sounds great, and Pennine will refund the fee if they publish the arrangement, but I suppose that then leads to the question of Royalties? Having paid the 25-50 to the copyright owner, who gets paid any royalities? the copyright owner or the arranger?
  4. Hello Pete,

    Usually, in the terms set by the copyright holders...

    "neither Pennine Music Publishing nor [Arranger] will be able to participate in any royalties that may be generated from the exploitation of the arrangement"

    But you'll be happy to hear that if we publish the arrangement, Pennine will pay all the publishing licences and subsequent re-print licences. Pennine will also pay the arranger 16% of the retail price per sale of the arrangement.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2011
  5. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    That sounds like a good deal. I have dabbled at writing my own stuff, but arrangements always seem easier; worth considering. You are to be congratulated on such an innovative idea; and deserve to be swamped with realy decent arrangements :clap:
  6. eflatbass

    eflatbass Supporting Member

    It really is fantastic that Pennine should offer this service. Let's hope it will help to reduce the number of "illegal" arrangements floating around the country's bandrooms.
  7. Thirteen Ball

    Thirteen Ball Active Member

    I've had a look over the form on this one, and the way it's all laid out is great.

    I genuinely think a large part of the reason we get so many arrangements of questionable legality in banding is that arrangers simply don't know where to start when it comes to copyright.

    Now, for the sake of a fiver (which you can get back if the arrangement's a good-un) you can find out everything you need, and decide how to go forward. And based on 16% of a £20-ish score, you only have to sell about five copies to break even on a £20 copyright fee. (OK, some will cost more than that, but most brass arrangers I know do this because they want to play it and hear it, and any money's just a bonus.)

    I'm fairly used to chasing copyright myself, but what with holding down a full time job and popping off to bands in-between times, I may well just pay the fiver in future and save myself the hassle!

    Well done Gav. A great scheme. :clap:
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  8. We're thrilled that 'Pennine Music Licensing' has recieved positive comments from you all. We're happy to announce that people have started to use the system (& for those of you that have, all your requests have been sent away this morning!).

    We hope more of the budding arrangers out there shall continue to work legally & hope our new system can provide them with the help they need to ensure this is the case.
  9. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    Hi, I've looked through this and there is a bit that I'm unclear on.

    Once I have paid my £5 and received authorisation from the copyright holders I can do my arrangement and once I have done my arrangement (and paid any additional copyright fee) I am not allowed to sell copies of the arrangement, but a publisher is?!

    Could you explain how that part works please, as if I have permission to arrange a piece for continued UK performance I am unsure why I'm not allowed to sell it.

    Also, if I wanted to sell something once it was arranged (either through a publisher or directly (if possible)) what number do I put in the 'Number of Copies' box on your form as we have no idea how many may be sold.

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2011
  10. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    Another question: is the £5 refunded if permission to arrange is refused?
  11. jonesbp

    jonesbp Member

    no... that was made clear from the outset


    No! Whilst in 90% of cases you will be granted a licence for your arrangement, there are some cases in which you will be denied permission to proceed. Your £5.00 fee will not be refunded if your application for a licence is refused. This is because we have still had to go through all the paperwork etc to process your request."
  12. its_jon

    its_jon Member

    New idea.

    Why not strike a deal with the powers that be.

    Most bands in the UK are part of a brass association of one kind or another.... as part of our registration fee (good opportunity to increase it) why not give all registered bands the freedom to arrange whatever they like.

    In return... the brass band associations simply write one big pre arranged healthy cheque out to cover it.

    The chances are very high that the original composers will receive more this way and bandsmen will be red tape free to do what they have been doing anyway for the past 100+ years. Emulate popular music.

    Brass band performance of arrangements of popular music in NO WAY challenges the sales of the original work.
    Im sure the rights people will understand this and a deal could be struck for the benefit of both sides.

    Of course this cuts out the middle man... so you wont be so keen on the idea.
  13. No, you are not allowed to sell your arrangement to others as you would not have a licence to do this. The service we offer is only to get permission to make (& perform etc) arrangements of copyrighted works.

    The licence you would need to sell your arrangement is a totally separate licence that involves the copyright holders taking a percent of all the sales you would make. When publishers request these licences, we have to 'guess' how many copies of the arrangements we are going to sell. If we need more, then we have to re-apply for 're-print' licences. These licences are separate from the arrangement licences that we are offering with this service.

    If you did want to sell your arrangement after getting an arrangement licence, you can either submit it to a publisher who will then (if accepted) pay all the subsequent publishing fee's etc, or, once you have your licence, request permission to self-publish. You would then be responsible for all the costs incurred in order to get this publication licence.
  14. A good idea in that it means that all the 'home grown' arrangements around the country would be legal.

    However, sadly, this would never happen for several reasons.

    1. There are so many different copyright holders out there that the brass associations wouldn't know who to pay.

    2. Copyright holders are very strict on the pieces of music they control. They need to know of EVERY arrangement that is made.

    3. Each copyright holder requests an arrangement fee. This changes depending on the piece if music arrangement. They would under no circumstances accept an annual 'block fee' leaving all their controlled titles open for arrangement.

    4. No brass band association in the country would be able to afford the fees!
  15. its_jon

    its_jon Member

    how much are we talking here ?

    If each band in an area found an extra £20 that could be £1000 per area maybe ?

    so whats that ?.... maybe £10.000 per year ?

    and that's not for selling music... just performing an emulation of it.

    How much would they want ? ..... I don't seriously see them turning down an offer like that.
  16. It's worth remembering that £10,000 is a mere drop in the ocean to the copyright holders. Very rough calculations...

    Approx 800 bands in the UK (contesting & non-contesting) let's say all bands get 2 'home grown' arrangements per year, that's 1600 arrangements. At an average fee of £30 per arrangement, that's £48,000. Now there are 3 big copyright holding companies within the UK - of course, they would not split this amount as each would argue they could be loosing out if they did. So each would demand the same amount, if not more. (approx £150,000 total)

    Then there are the other smaller copyright holding companies, they're not going to want to miss out either and would probably demand the same amount (not justified, but if your theory was to work, every copyright holding company within the UK would have to reach an agreement.)

    Every arrangement then has to be declared & processed for the PRS etc. And every band has to agree to pay the increase in fee to their brass band association, if not, the price for all the others increases!
  17. Steve

    Steve Active Member

    That is just the answer I was looking for, so I thank you!

    Could you point me in the direction of more details regarding the licence to sell rather than the licence to arrange as I dont expect you to spoon feed the world details of how to do what you do.

    PM me by all means, I am very intrigued in this 'post arrangement' stage for many reasons.

  18. its_jon

    its_jon Member

    Ok.... that's what we estimate they want

    At the moment what do they actually get ?

    And can we meet them in the middle.

    In not sure brass bands would find an increased association fee a bad thing.
    When we are becoming forced to buy professional arrangements (many of which could be done in house) at a cost of £40 per score

    1 new piece of music per quarter and and extra Xmas piece and your looking at £200 I make that £160,000 brass bands spend on pop arrangements.. before you even get to the good original works.
    Of course bands would like to play more new music, but the costs stop them from doing so.

    and... without a publisher in the middle... more of that money can go direct to the original composer ?!
  19. Each copyright holder is different, however you can work on an average of £30 for the arrangement fee. This is not a publication fee or performance/recording fee, this is just for permission for an arrangement to be made.

    No. Quite simply, copyright holders demand what they are owed and have a legal right to do so. No exceptions.

    We at Pennine agree that the cost of new music is a problem for a lot of bands. That is why however, you shall find that 90% of the music in our catalogue costs less that £20.00.

    The publisher pays the copyright holders who pay the composers. Regardless of who pays the copyright holders (a publisher or the Brass Band Associations etc), the composer would recieve the same percent royalies.

    Also, under your method, how would the copyright holders know who to pay & how much?
  20. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    Don't know where the hell you're buying music from, but we bought something like 15 or 16 pieces back in March and spent around £250 in total, just have to look around.

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