Are 4 valve baritones really all that bad? As a eupho player, I find it hard to believe a 4th valve on a baritone is a bad idea. It can suffer from similar weaknesses in tuning. Sure, there's the argument it's not really needed. But that's also the reason why for many years you could buy Imperial and early Sovereign euphs and basses with only 3 or 4 valves. Older players didn't want them. But now who wants a 3 valver euph or bass for anything other than beginners or carolling? You could argue the repertoire has changed, and the increased range necessitates the extra valve, but surely the instruments had to exist in common usage first before the repertoire changed? I have to suspect conservatism is playing a role - that fear of change brass bands are renowned for!! But having said that I haven't played the new Besson or York instruments - so maybe I'm wrong?