Appeals Procedure

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by aqua76, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. aqua76

    aqua76 Member

    Quick question for you all....

    In Scotland, the procedure for appeals (ie for/against relegation and promotion) is a very new one ie nobody has ever done it before!!!

    I know its set up and operational in England (and Wales?) so exactly how does it work???

    Is it different in every area or is it more or less a standard procedure across the board?

    Just interested to see what exactly is involved in this wondering how Scotland will approach it given that nobody has actually used the process (yet!)

    Dalmellington Band
  2. lewis

    lewis Member

    If I've read the rules correctly you simply write to whichever body ran the contest stating you're appeal or complaint and I think it costs you 50 quid for them to look at it! I think that's right but sure there's someone on here who has been involved in an appeal.
  3. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member


    Does this mean that if a band has a good year apart from the area, they may be able to appeal either for promotion or against relegation?
  4. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    If the Midlands is anything to go by Craig (probably not!!) then the short answer is no. As seen a few years ago - a particular band had a steller year elsewhere but got a freak result at the area. They appealed for promotion but it was turned down as the area effectively is a stand-alone contest - results elsewhere do not count towards your final ranking.

    Does anyone know of any cases where a band has been promoted due to other contest results?
  5. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Another related question I have is on promotion ... how many areas have automatic promotion for the top two in the section? I know that Scotland has this system in use.
  6. lewis

    lewis Member

    I'm pretty certain you cannot appeal an actual result! The Ibstock fiasco was slightly different becasue the midlands association decided to relegate moe bands than usual, but the sections are decided on the area contests! Whether it is fair or not is a different matter but it doesn't matter if a band has a brilliant year and than has a nightmare at the areas, look at the thread that was put on before the areas Dyke could have theoretically got relegated and they won the nationals in that year (I'm sure they would have come up with something to prevent that though!). I don't think bands would appeal if it was the other way round would they? Can you imagine the appeal letter: has had a terrible year contesting but managed to fluke a result at the recent areas and have gain a promotion to the 2nd section. In due respect we think it would be ridiculous for us to be it that section so we are appealing for the promotion not to happen.

  7. yorkie19

    yorkie19 Active Member

    On a more general note, isn't it about time everything was unified? Personally speaking, I'd like to see a very clear process of promotion / relegation, even as simple as the top three get promoted and the bottom three get relegated. I'd do away with the Appeals process as well.

    In order to do this, though, we would need a better process of adjudication. It's blatantly apparent that some adjudicators are not up to the job (I'll keep my own council on who).

    It's made me laugh over the past two or three years that bands seem to spend as much time debating the post-Area appeals as they spend swapping guesses as to the test-piece.

  8. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    I, too, find it odd that each area can use different criteria for bands getting promotion/relegation for a National competition. Although areas employ the 3 year points average for bands and all appear to use it for relegation, the top two in the lower sections get automatic promotion in some! Should all areas use the 3 year points average for promotion or promote the top two or three? :confused:
  9. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member

    Believe it or not... this has happened before, strange I know, can't remember the bands involved though...
  10. backrowbloke

    backrowbloke Member

    Not sure what you mean...AFIK the rules state that every area (ie region in the national contest) use the same promotion / demotion rules - the 3 year average. Are you referring to local grading as opposed to national grading? I have to admit I'm boit hazy on local grading, as in Midlands we only have 1 system - all bands here only have national grading.
  11. GJG

    GJG Well-Known Member

    I'm sure this is not as strange as you might think. Although we are now facing probable relegation to 2nd Section, just two years ago we were in a situation where, with two 6th places in previous years, we came 8th. Had we come 7th, we would have qualified for automatic promotion to Championship Section. I can assure you that we would almost certainly have appealed against promotion at that time.

  12. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... I was referring to ALL areas under the National grading system using the same methods.
  13. lewis

    lewis Member

    Why? Why do you turn up for contests if you don't really want to get promoted? A year in a better section can hardly be a bad thing can it? You would be able to do better contests and play against better bands. And more importantly wouldn't you be able to find more players if you could sell your band as a championship section band?

    It worries me that a band wouldn't want promotion, that they are happy with where they are. That seems to lack ambition! I promise you I am not trying to be rude, i know I joked about the appeal letter but seriously why compete? If you have had got promoted and competed in the championship section then even if you had got relegated straight away (which is nearly impossible) it could only have been GOOD for the band. Say you had done three or four contests that year, if you had got even just one mid table result that would have been a fantastic result for you, if you had come near the bottom everytime it wouldn't have mattered it still would have been a good experience for the band.

    Again and again and again we go on about how the banding movement is killing itself, maybe lack on ambition (by eveyone not just a few bands) is a key factor in this? :(
  14. aqua76

    aqua76 Member

    In Scotland i think we use a 3 year average to determine points, but there is not grace period ie bands can go up and straight back down. (i think!!)

    Im sure it happened to Johnstone a few years back and am pretty sure its going to happen to Newmilns & Galston this year. (i could be wrong through......)

    Also i didnt realise until a few weeks ago that some places in England, its not automatic promotion if you are in top two....

    Why cant we standardise the system?? We all have to play the same piece, why not abide by the some promotion/relegation rules.

    Also, could we standardise the adjudicating?? Scotland has two judges ineach section now, with some of English sections following our lead :D
    I for one would prefer to see two judges, but in separate boxes....or how about 3 independant adjudicators in 3 boxes, with 3 buckets heheh

    Dalmellington Band
  15. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Jane, we saw with the Yorkshire region that Yorkshire Imp's second place was not enough to return them to the top section. Like most (all?) areas in England (Wales too?) promotion seems to be based on a three year points average. If this system was in place for this year in Scotland, would it have allowed Dalmellington to return back to the Championship section?
  16. ian perks

    ian perks Active Member

    In 2002 we apealed due to a incident which took place during our performance where a certain BASS PLAYER from a certain band tootled some notes coming from the warm up room to the registration room, we had just finished the first movement of Royal Parks the adjudicator GOFF RICHARDS wrote on the part something like the last few notes played were not on the copy.

    At the end of our performance our Conductor made a offical complaint on the stage to a Contest Offical, the adjudicator was informed but we were placed last, which meant we were relegated come 2003.
    However we appealed due to the incident what had took place and the Midland Regional Committee let us stop in the 1st section:clap:
    So in 2003 we had to come in the first 6 just to stop in the section but we did better than that we came 3rd and thus qualified for the National Finals of that year:biggrin: :clap:
  17. aqua76

    aqua76 Member

    Possibly....let me get my calculator out :D

    I think Johnstone (who won the section) were 7th or 8th in previous year, and Kirky Kelvin were 3rd, we had just been relegated so would have been on average points, so possibly it would have been us and Kirky Kelvin, not 100% sure about that.

    I think it should be the top two automatically going up though. Points situation is more applicable for relegation. Although if it had been the bottom two automatically going down we would still be in top section, having never had a bottom two finish in the last 12 years or so :-(

  18. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    ... but isn't that why the relegation system is based on a 3 year average? (That bands have an opportunity to avoid being relegated because of a one-off bad or freak result). Newly promoted bands get a fighting chance to compete in the upper section by being awarded the average from the size of the section and can try to consolidate their playing strength. Other bands have to make sure that their average does not drop to a level that would threaten relegation. It becomes more cut-throat if a section is small and one bad result could throw things into disarray for the following year! The area association could spread the timespan over an extra couple of years or increase the number of bands in the section to be considerate of general performance ... or make sure the adjudication standard is consistent from one year to the next. I don't think relegating the bottom two because of one contest would be popular with most bandspeople.
  19. Craigsav83

    Craigsav83 Active Member

    I feel the problem lies with too few bands in the top section. 10 bands for me is a little low... it means that apart from the consistsnt top 3 or 4 (in Scotland) any of the others could be relegated depending on how the results fall... that is what has happened in previous years.

    Taking Scotland again, few bands that have been promoted recently have stayed for more than a couple of years, with quite a few only lasting one year. This is one of 2 things, either the section is too small, and doesnt give bands a fighting chance of staying up, or there is such a big gulf between the two sections, and I'm pretty sure its not the latter.
  20. brassneck

    brassneck Active Member

    Putting an appeal through is quite difficult to apply unless something out of the ordinary is experienced. Bands have to observe the rules and stick by the processes of promotion/relegation until change is officially approved. Fair enough, the odds are stacked against a band if they cannot improve on results (against recently promoted bands who are given a mid table rating by default) ... but to complain against this if they get relegated? I think that band would be shooting itself in the foot and the appeal would be thrown out.

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