Adjudicator numbers

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by Born Again Hovis Man, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. marc71178

    marc71178 Member

    What problem?
  2. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    you beat me to it marc!

    I honestly don't believe it makes that much difference whether you have one adjudicator or more, closed or open adjudication, set tests or own choice..... there always have been, and always will be, differences of opinion and results that some people disagree with, because Music is subjective. Even with some adjudicators moving to the 'criteria based' scoring, it still comes down to opinions and interpretation. There will always be bands who think/know they didn't deserve a particular result (and that goes for the good results as well as the poor ones!); If you can't accept that, then don't play the game...
  3. simonium

    simonium Member

    This is ridiculous. The current system has worked flawlessly for hundreds of years.
  4. essexgirl

    essexgirl Member

    I come back to my original question of ; what happens in the other regions who have two adjudicators...
  5. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    If you mean the question about them sitting in the same box, as far as I'm aware all 5 areas that use 2 judges have them sitting in a box together and discussing it before producing one joint set of results. There's some info on the Yorkshire area site.

    This has been discussed a number of times on tMP over the years; eg. this thread from 2005, worth a quick read (if nothing else, for its references to how badly some people thought the Masters experiment with 3 separate boxes/3 separate sets of results worked out!)
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  6. halsasaurus

    halsasaurus Member

    Brass Band Adjudicators

    I have been thinking about Brass Band Contesting after reading the thoughts of the recently deceased, Arthur Butterworth, with regards to contesting.
    He was definitely not a fan, but I personally love it, regardless of all its flaws.
    I have looked for threads about adjudicators and this one seems as good as any that I found
    Not only is there a lot of Pride at Stake at Contests but, there is also money and the reputation and possibly future prospects for Bands (when Band grading is on the line whether it is promotion or relegation)
    Adjudicators are paid to do the job just like Referees are Paid in football and rugby
    How are Adjudicators assessed and judged? What credentials do they have to supply other than being recognised as a great musician, conductor, or Composer in their own right?
    Is there any aptitude test at all and what rule book do they work to other than Basics (Note Accuracy, Tuning, Tempo, Dynamics, Intonation)
    As I would expect the majority of Bands in the same Contest Section to have similar abilities in the Basics, then how can they be really judged and placed, especially when an adjudicator has to listen to at least 10 of them in a single sitting.
    I would love to see the results of a random test with the Top Rated Adjudicators where they have to listen to ten band performances from a recorded contest (they will not know the contest or the bands involved) and to see the independent markings of each adjudicator
    There could possibly be a consensus on the Winning Band but there is no chance that the adjudicators would grade every Band the same from 1 to 10
    I would then like to see the whole process repeated several times but the twist would be to shuffle the order of each bands performance (delete any Audience reactions or unique clues that would spark any memories of any particular performance)
    I would be quite amazed if any of the Adjudicators would be able to replicate the same results. They may be able to get the Winner the same and maybe even the 2nd place the same (but only because they will be concentrating of matching the Bands that they voted for the first time around). They would never ever give the same set of results for all 10 Bands
    The lottery gives chances of 14 million to one I believe
    The chances of winning a Band Competition are not as low as this, especially if you are an extremely good band (for your section), or an extremely bad band (for your section).
    Just a thought
  7. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Computer generated AI would be a much better and flawless system
  8. halsasaurus

    halsasaurus Member

    Arthur Butterworth thoughts regardin Brass Band Contesting

    The quote is as follows
    After the war and my entry into orchestral life I felt that the very principle of musical competition and the brass band notably so, a flawed one.
    For, unlike a ball game, a motor or horse race, where the winner is plain for all to see: the one who reaches the winning-post first or who scores the most goals, runs or whatever other points.
    Whereas in musical performance it can never really be said who is “best”, it is only a matter (or hotly disputed opinion - no more than that).
    Now there has always been some kind of musical competition from the troubadours of medieval times, through Wagner and “The Mastersingers”, down to the world-class Leeds Piano Competition or other such important world events; but these always promote the seeking of new and up-coming young world class artists to provide the distinguished soloist of the future; the music for its own sake.
    Whereas let us face it, the brass band contest always appears to be almost solely interested in the gung-ho triumphalism of winning just for its own sake - never mind the music itself!
    It uses whatever chosen piece of music merely as a musical football so long as it has plenty of technical challenge that is what matters.
    Musical communication is the most divine of spiritual arts, meant to communicate mankind’s deepest emotions and intellectual perceptions of life; not just a trifling “sport” to be used primarily for the competitive, challenging beings to demonstrate their supposed superiority with, and then go on about it year after year, listing all the prizes they have ever won.
    This is not essentially what musical performance is about - it is not a sport, it is a divine and immeasurable art.
  9. Bbmad

    Bbmad Active Member

    Thinking about it if we must have contests, maybe a spread of systems would give a balanced view for example,

    2 ABBA accredited adjudicators (one in a box one not), 25% vote each
    1 computer generated AI system, 25%
    1 supporter of each band who "Saw the band before and they werent as good" 25%

    this would cover more bases and allow for a fairer system
  10. halsasaurus

    halsasaurus Member

    I can see the point that Arthur was making, that it is the music that matters rather than the Band. This is evident in another quote I have from Arthur:

    My first day back at school in September 1937 - a Monday - coincided with the September Belle Vue contest.
    I had noticed for weeks before the advertisements on all the local hoardings had advertised the event.
    All the top bands were to be there, their names blazoned forth; but the title of the test piece was - as usual - printed in the most miniscule letters.
    After all this was only the music itself, not at all important (!) like the names of the bands who would be playing it:
    I noticed it was to be some piece Id never heard of before (what did it matter anyway ?):
    Brahms Academic Festival Overture arranged by Denis Wright.

    Whatever could that be? - What an odd title! - who was Brahms anyway?)
    That afternoon as soon as school finished at quarter -to-four, I was off on the school bus, which would pass Belle Vue anyway, so I hurried along, and just scraped in the hall as band No. 9 was about to play; the adjudicators whistle had blown.
    The band was Besses conducted by William Wood.

    That moment musically transfixed my life forever afterwards

    I heard the most stunning brass band performance ever.
    I was utterly over-awed at this marvelous music;
    I had never heard anything like it before.
    I went home in an absolute aura of wonder and exuberance, so that this work by one of the greatest composers of all time became for me a life-time talisman of musical meaning, and so it has remained to this very day.

    I was won over to Brahms that afternoon and he has remained as one of the most revered and well-understood musical voices of all time for me.
    I wondered if ever I should hear this music again.

    Curiously, some few weeks later I saw advertised on Manchester buses and tramcars, the regular advertisement for Manchester Education Committees series of school childrens concert in the Free Trade Hall given by the Hallé Orchestra, and the opening piece that coming October was to be the Brahms Academic Festival Overture”.
    Naturally, I went to this concert (Id already been going to Hallé schools concerts for some time).
    But this performance of the Brahms won me over to the orchestra for life, and so I have remained ever since: more than anything else, an orchestral musician - player, conductor and composer.

    But it was Besses stunning (and winning!) performance that September day that started it all for me.
    So I have played and conducted this piece with orchestra (or brass band, probably more often than any other concert work in all my experience.
  11. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I know it's not really in the spirit of his thoughts to note this - but Besses won it that year, off the number 15 draw. Lucky timing from the young Arthur!

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