Adjudication and Quality Control

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by The view from the Chair, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. From Paddy's Welsh Area thread ( )
    From Criticism of Adjudicators thread ( )
    From the 'UK Banding: Yesterdays people, yesterdays ways?' thread ( ) {This thread is an article written by TheMusicMan about a number of Banding topics, and is well worth reading if you have not seen it before.}

    To some degree we are nearly all assessed and reassessed in our lives, and it's usually done by people who have done the role previously.To this end has anyone ever suggested that the National Association of Brass Band Conductors could be approached by the Association of Brass Band Adjudicators to act as a quality control organisation? Admittedly, there is an overlap of membership e.g. Dr. Roy Newsome is National President of NABBC and an honorary member of ABBA but that should be an advantage as any quality control would inevitably require the highest calibre of assessors. However I think it would be prudent, and offer transparency, that any 'assessor' should not adjudicate during a fixed appointment term doing 'quality control'.
  2. Euph1888

    Euph1888 New Member

    One thing that has to come into play here is a code of conduct for adjudicators, I found it really interesting over the weekend when the draw was made for the championship section in Wales, the draw was made on time and all the bands representatives then passed this information onto their bands as normal, however it couldn’t be made public until the adjudicators, was in the box 5 minutes before the start of section, what was stopping any body putting the draw on public forum, was it done to protect the adjudicator in some way, and why wasn’t it a National rule

    There has be rules and consequences for any adjudicator,. if these rules are broken, bands know where they stand, it will also serve and to protect other bands that maybe adjudicated by the same judge at a later date

    As far as I know, these rules do not exist – however if they do please somebody put me wrong, things to cover would be

    Searching for any communication device on adjudicator before entering the box
    A standard procedure of he stewardship of the judge when they are outside of the box on the day of the contest
    If an adjudicator has contact with a band he/she is about to adjudicator before he judges them – it needs to be brought to the attention of both competing bands & contest organisers

    These are just a few points – but if proven a standard so called “penalty” should be in play to protect not just the bands but the integrity of the whole competition

  3. TheMusicMan

    TheMusicMan tMP Founder Staff Member

    The View from the Chair - thanks for revisiting these threads and articles of mine, much appreciated.

    Euph1888 - some very good points raised.

    I am led to believe that one adjudicator used in the Welsh region this last weekend had recently taken a band in their preparations of the test piece used in the same section he was adjudicating in. I shall leave it to you eminent tMP'ers to ponder who that adjudicator might be, and where that band came in the results.

    EDIT: I want to point out here that I was misled on this point. No adjudicator in the Welsh region conducted a band in their preparations that they then subsequently adjudicated on in the same competition. Some people are telling porky pies :)

    Just to add, I have no axe to grind as I am no longer playing or conducting any band... haven't for many years, but Euph1811 makes a very valid point.
  4. NervyBsMD

    NervyBsMD Member

    Surely if any steps whatsoever need to be taken in order to prevent the Adjudicator(s) from knowing the draw order, or if they need to be searched for any devices etc. which might enable them to make inappropriate communications whilst in the box, there has to be a big question as to their suitability for the job.

    If you can't trust the person, don't hire him/her to do the job.

    The purpose of the 'box', for instance, should be to shield the Adjudicator(s) from any outside distraction whilst listening and writing, not to prevent him/her from knowing who is playing. If it is felt that there is a need for the latter, I would seriously question whether he/she should even be doing the job.

    Having said that, I do feel that anyone who has been recruited to act as an Adjudicator for a given contest should be sensible enough to refrain from doing anything such as rehearsing a band on the same piece (regardless of which Area they are in) if there is a liklihood that he/she will leave themselves open to question at a later date.

    We need to have total trust in our Adjudicators, and they need to be above reproach if it is to work as well as it can.
  5. Pav

    Pav Member

    Are we talking about a standard frisk here or will judges have to suffer the snap of the rubber glove before they enter the box?
  6. worzel

    worzel Member

    If the purpose of the box wasn't to prevent them from knowing who is playing then why would it matter if they did know the order?

    You've got to be careful not to confuse dishonesty with lack of objectivity. None of us are completely objective, and there are many ways the adjudicator could find out when a particular band is playing anyway. You blind yourself from who is playing in order to help not let your biases unwittingly creep in, not to prove to others that you are being honest.
  7. tkhbss

    tkhbss Member

    I think some of them should feel the slap of the rubber glove after they have been in the box!
  8. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    I actually think the total opposite, sorry! I'd love it if everyone adjudicating a set-piece contest had at least run the piece through with a band (that wasn't in that contest, obviously), because it would help them to know the piece and all of its potential pitfalls better.
  9. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    I don't think you're actually in disagreement there...
  10. katieeuph

    katieeuph Member

    I've often wondered about the validity of a draw when if an adjudicator was unscrupulous they could find out anyway if they had a mobile or something similar. Back as far as 2000 my band played at the National Finals in the RAH and we sat right next to the adjudicators' (3, I recall) tent for the other bands, where I clearly heard one mobile go off with an alert from inside the tent. This could easily have been his wife asking when he was home for tea but could just have easily been someone texting him the draw.
    Do I think this happens often? No.
    Do I think it makes much of a difference if the adjudicator knows the bands? No
    COULD it happen and COULD it make a difference in some cases? Yes, possibly.
  11. Euph1888

    Euph1888 New Member

    The statement made by the Music Man is as yet unproven - but my point still remains, is self policing which I believe is done at the moment really work? I bet Alex Ferguson would love self policing - he criticises referees and then gets a touchline ban - would he get the same if he made up the rules himself I doubt it - are we going to have same way in brass bands - it just doesn't work, it needs an independent body to draw up a code of conduct with potential consequences and punishment for judges who break them
  12. bariwizard

    bariwizard Member

    LMFAO at this thread. Frisking should be for child sex pests and Guantanamo Bay - get over yourselves, it's only a contest! If you distrust the system this much then put on a tin-foil hat and stay at home in case "they" see you.
  13. Musicmaestro

    Musicmaestro New Member

    Welsh Area 2011

    Just joined the discussion - however if that is the case, the adjudicator should be named and shamed I say!!!

    So open up the discussion and let us in, anyone can throw an accusation lets draw this to an open forum and know who we are talking about.

    Its not about having an axe to grind but a willingness to share the truth.
  14. Rustonw

    Rustonw Member

    Well there's only 2 to choose from, take your pick! Maybe the band involved will do the honourable thing?
  15. Musicmaestro

    Musicmaestro New Member

    Well Rustonw

    There may well have been two but no one has said who they are talking about. Whose honour are we talking about anyway? As nothing has been said to need to defend an honour?

    Stop playing games and just tell me who we are talking about?
  16. Rustonw

    Rustonw Member

    No idea my friend but i'm sure if it's true someone will tell.
    I'm not playing games!
  17. Musicmaestro

    Musicmaestro New Member

    Well Rustonw

    As you say and if I am your friend I thought you may enlighten me? I am new to this so would appreciate some guidance?

    So if your not playing then who are the game players?

    I thought contesting was a fair playing field for all?
  18. si sourtone

    si sourtone New Member

    It's gotta be Buckley, he couldn't adjudicate a game of snap... did feel for the bands that had him in the box!
  19. Euphgit

    Euphgit Member

    For banding to ''take a huge leap forward'' we need to stop obsessing about contests and rankings and start worrying about playing good music to decent audiences
  20. DublinBass

    DublinBass Supporting Member

    I agree with you 100% IF there was any transparency in brass band adjudicating. However, I think the tin-foil option is a bit harsh as if every band that distrusted the system stayed home, contesting might be done. However, I DO like some of the ideas on other threads to help with transparency (e.g. post all the adjudicator comments online, etc...)

    I really think if there is it!! It's much better than rumours and speculation being spread.

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