4barsrest World Rankings Biased?

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by Rob2, Aug 5, 2010.

  1. Rob2

    Rob2 New Member

    Decided to kill some time by comparing the 4barsrest world rankings vs brass stats to see if there were any major discrepencies. (Greater then 2 places)

    I have discounted overseas bands to keep the comparison relevant.

    Interestingly there seemed to be the inklings of a trend emerging. The big beneficiaries in the 4bars rest rankings are:

    Whitburn + 10 places (Links with British Bandsman editor and/or rankings compiler?)
    Reg Vardy + 4 (No conspiracy theory to offer here)
    Tredegar + 3 (4br editors nationalistic benevolence?)
    BTM + 3 (ditto)
    Tongwynlais Temperance + 3 (ditto)

    (Also Cory are 1 place higher however there is, as yet, no room for further promotion to higher than 1st place)

    Worryingly, other than Desford, the southern bands seem to fare badly in 4bars rest rankings:

    GUS minus 10 places
    Redbridge - 6
    Wingates - 6
    Camborne - 5
    Flowers - 4

    The issue is that if contests are going to use rankings as a basis for invitations (such as the English Nationals) then a system open to scrutiny such as brass stats must be superior since it provides a breakdown of points earned.

    If the 4barsrest rankings are to be used for anything other than "a bit of fun" and for them to be considered as unbiased then points awarded per contest should be disclosed.

    Otherwise they lay themselves open to the sort of slapdash analysis contained in this post.
  2. toby hobson

    toby hobson Member

    I wouldn't worry about it TBH....there is only one place in a ranking anyone is bothered about, I know its a simplistic psychology but its much like the old outlook/chestnut........... The worst position to come in a contest is 2nd.......If you want to be further up a ranking then i suggest winning more contests is the best tactic and leave the others to quibble/fight over scraps!!!
  3. Rob2

    Rob2 New Member

    I can't say that I lose any sleep over 4br the rankings.

    However if I was, say, playing with GUS and lost out on an invite to Brass in Concert or (dare I say it) the English Nationals because of the bands perceived standings in a "flawed" order of merit it would bug me a bit.
  4. astreet83

    astreet83 Member

  5. Bayerd

    Bayerd Active Member

    Sorry, must take issue with this, Wingates are not based in the south.

    How very dare you......
  6. Simon Preshom

    Simon Preshom Member

    They are based on the results that a band achieves, not where the compiler decides to stick them.

    Its explained here.....http://www.4barsrest.com/rankings/system.asp
  7. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    I suspect that one of the contentious points of Rob2's post is that the southern Bands dont fare to well in the 4BR system. I suspect that this is because of "Regionals (Championship section 1st prizes range between 12 and 140 depending on the relative strength of each area, prizes awarded to all sections)"
  8. Simon Preshom

    Simon Preshom Member

    Call me controversial, but could it be the fact that Yorkshire and North West are significantly stronger areas than the 'Southern' ones and thus deserving more points???

    Also, if the 'Southern' bands mentioned did better in competition against the 'Northern' bands (example ENBC, British Open, Nationals etc) then they would be higher ranked...simple as.
  9. Eb master

    Eb master Member

    Well said. You southern bands bow to our northern greatness !!! :)
  10. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    4BarsRest make no secret of the way they 'load' - or to use the terminology of the OP "bias" their ranking points. Its there for all to see in the links already posted here. So I don't see what the problem is. Whether there is the right amount of "bias" or if the organisers of major contests should be using such a subjective opinion for selection is another thing - and something that will never be agreed on.

    Personally I have no time for conspiracy theorists. Most of the time the theories are only started by the government to stop us talking about 'all that other stuff' they're doing....:roll:
  11. P_S_Price

    P_S_Price Member

    No conspirancy, I agree it is open in their notes - points based on the strength of the contest. Better bands in the north = more points for northern contests
  12. Red Elvis

    Red Elvis Active Member

    Thems is fightin' words !!! :)
  13. yorkie19

    yorkie19 Active Member

    Oh come on Ian, it's well known that the Illuminati, along with the Stonecutters have conspired to keep the Brass Band Hierarchy the way it is, so that the ancient prophecies are not fulfilled. ;)
  14. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The bias is too strong, though. You see enough points trickling down into 1st, 2nd, and even 3rd sections in strong areas that you find these lower section bands ranked well into the 4BR top 200, while in weak areas a significant number of championship section bands struggle to get into the top 200 at all. This is plainly not an accurate reflection of merit!
  15. Rob2

    Rob2 New Member

    The point was clearly not comparing the relative strengths of areas but the differences between 4br rankings & brass stats rankings. They both use the same results from the same competitions.

    In 4br welsh bands do better than in brass stats. fact
    In brass stats bands from"the south" do better. fact

    Same contests significantly different rankings

    Apologies for offending Bayerd. Should have stated Wingates northern credentials.
  16. Kjata

    Kjata Member

    I think it's the most accurate method! The top section of yorkshire is much more competitive than the south and the north west as well (Fodens and Fairey being the 2 main bands, and only 2 bands in the open)!! And for the record I am a southerner!! :p
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  17. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but no-one would ever be so off the ball as to claim that the Yorkshire 2nd section is more competitive than the London or WoE championship sections. Would they?
  18. Kjata

    Kjata Member

    No but the lower sections don't really apply because they change so often with promotion or relegation! At least in the top section there are only 2 changes each year!
  19. Pav

    Pav Member

    Different methods lead to different results shocker!

    If bands are concerned about their ranking and qualifying for the English Nats then going to the contest when invited might be a plan.
  20. Splitzer

    Splitzer Member

    That would be pushing the point too far, but the second section winners in the stronger areas would very likely push the bottom end bands in the championship section in the weaker areas. I do think that with the exception of the top 2/3 bands in the London area, the standard of London champ section would broadly equate to 1st section Yorks/NW.