4 Bars Rankings

Discussion in 'The Rehearsal Room' started by TUBAWAY ARMY, May 29, 2008.



    Hi there, I was wondering if there is anyone out there who keeps a printed record of the 4 Bars Rankings for each month. I am curious enough in wanting to make a comparison from April to May this year but am unable to find the top 200 as of April.
  2. ghost

    ghost Member

    You could recreate the majority of the April positions by using the + or - column, if of course you have alot of time to spare. Alternatively you could go out and party.......:cool:
  3. robcav

    robcav Member

    No I don't keep a record but you are quite right to wonder at this situation. I can't understand why 4BR bother to keep the links to previous months' ranking details because they merely replicate the current month's positions. It's a ludicrous piece of statistical frippery and fluff which seems to give some semblance of credibility to inequalities which can never be surmounted. But I'm sure that point has been discussed elsewhere and Lord knows we all love to look at where we supposedly are in relation to other bands - I know I do.


    Thanks Ghost, but I am looking not at positions but the points...trying to fathom out how on earth 4 Bars allocates points to contests. Reading their explanation gives no hard rules on how they do it, just a 'guidance'

    As for the 'go and party', too busy banding !!!!!!
  5. ghost

    ghost Member

    Hi again,

    Yes, I quite agree. The criteria behind the allocation of points should be more transparent. It should be possible to work out from contest results who is collecting points. It would be very interesting to know things like, are all regionals allocated the same number of points (and if so, is that really fair?), do European competitions have similar points to say the nationals, etc etc. It is really a very complex area - many similarly ranked bands do not compete against each other. Perhaps the reason why the allocation of points is such an apparent secret is twofold - first, no one could possible understand it, and secondly it could cause endless arguments! Maybe it is better for us to live in blissful ignorance! As for not having any time for anything in life other than banding, I know that feeling well - I am principal cornet of my humble band organisation, treasurer, MD of the training band! Fortuanately my partner is in the band so she doesn't give me any grief about spending so much time there! But I wouldn't give it up for anything.
  6. Adamskied

    Adamskied Member

    I sent an e-mail to 4barsrest regarding the rankings and how they work it out....i got an e-mail back saying that 4barsrest have nothing to do with how the rankings are worked out. It is all done by some bloke who is nothing to do with them, he works it out and sends the calculations and results to 4BR and all they do is post them on to the site.

    So blaming 4BR wont do anything....they cant do anything about it.

    Does anyone know of a better way????

    A few friends thought about it, but it takes alot of work and after sometime we never really got around to doing anything about it.

    I much prefer the BBW rankings.
  7. tuba hero

    tuba hero New Member

    Hey man, I know! I reakon that its just weird, I mean, a win at the europeans gives you 200 points or more, where winning the australian or Nz nats gives the bands 50 points or less. How about this for 4 bars point system:
    100 for 1st
    75 for 2nd
    50 for 3rd
    40 for 4th-6th and
    10 for the rest of them.
    Now that would make sense. Happay banding.
  8. ghost

    ghost Member

    4barsrest rankings

    Well now, that seems a good idea, but I can only agree to it if my band are given a 500 point head start as we never win anything!!!

    I think that it would also be good if each region showed their members just how each section is ranked - ie how many points they are taking in to the following year. It would mean that say a lower section band would be watching out for other bands who could stop it being promoted or bands who could cause a relegation. Only two areas have decent regional websites. The Yorkshire one is excellent. Why can't they all follow suit. When you think almost 2500 people compete in a comptition every year in a region and they have no website!!! If you go in the the regional part of the website, it generally says, the website will be constructed shortly - I have been seeing that for as long as I can remember!!! It took 24 hours to get a basic website up for our band, and two months later we won the Mouthpiece website of the month competition - if we can do it, then so could they. Oh I love getting on my soapbox!
  9. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    That's not strictly true - although the rankings are produced by a 3rd party, they are done on behalf of and published by 4br, who presumably pay for the service. If enough people starting questioning the how & why 4br could, and should, ask their statto to change the way he does it.

    There's an explanation of sorts here:
    Different contests are worth more or less points based on the current ranks of the competing bands. It makes sense on paper, but there are (imo!)inherent flaws in the initial weightings which then create discrepancies in the 'relative strength' of every contest and therefore the points available to the competing bands. For example, we we all know the average standard in Yorkshire is higher than the average in LSC.... but should their area win really be worth 8 or 9 times more points?
    Is it fair that bands that fail to compete for several months, or fold, stay high in the rankings?
    Shouldn't a band get some sort of boost for beating other bands that are ranked much, much higher?

    Like Adam said, we've wasted many hours in the pub talking about this! Once you start looking into it, things get very complicated very quickly, and there will never be a perfect system.... but there's no denying the current system is flawed. I wouldn't mind if it was just a bit of fun, but as long as its taken seriously by people like the Open organisers (4br rankings influence invites to the Senior Trophy) then I feel 4br have a duty of care to try and make it as fair as possible.
  10. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    I might be missing your point..... but regional/national gradings are completely different from 4br rankings.

    LSC give all the bands new grading tables on the day of the areas, there's no reason why every region couldn't do that. If you're in one of the regions that can't/don't/won't bother to update a decent website, its easy enough to work the points out yourself - you just need the last 3 years results which you can get on here and on 4br.
  11. Morghoven

    Morghoven Member

    That's an interesting point...as far as I know (and I will stand corrected if I am wrong) 4br haven't changed their method of calculating the tables since they were first introduced exactly as a "bit of fun". If certain contest organisers have since decided to use the rankings for a more serious purpose, surely the duty of care owed is to keep the system the same? That way, the people who use it are always getting whatever it was that attracted them to the system in the first place.

    If the calculations get modified now, then the habitual 4br-bashers (and there's plenty of them around here...) will only complain that it's been done to keep Cory and Tredegar at the top of the table!! ;)
  12. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Unless you're saying the system is totally perfect and unbiased, how is that fair?

    There's been loads of discussion about this on tMP over the last year or so, and some people do feel the current system is unfair and that the points loading has created a self-fulfilling prophecy. Have a look here for example.
  13. Morghoven

    Morghoven Member

    I'm not saying the system is totally perfect. It's an attempt to quantify an unquantifiable thing, so it can only be an approximate representation. But not changing the system is fair because the system as it stands is the one that the contest organisers are already using. If you don't like it being used to pick contest entries, complain to the people running the contest; but don't blame 4br for giving them the service they ask for.

    At any point in time, the same few bands win the big contests on a regular basis. Those are the best bands. Twas ever thus. No-one needs to 'fix the scores' or whatever to show that Black Dyke, Grimethorpe et al are the top bands. Most of them have been there or thereabouts for many years.

    But here's the thing...if the rankings were rigged differently, so that Black Dyke (for instance) could never get to the top spot, do you think they would stop winning prizes at the Open and the Nationals? Would they stop making and selling CDs? Would they no longer sell out concerts? Don't be silly. They would still be a top band - not because some computer spreadsheet told us so, but because the trophy cabinet and the audience numbers did.
  14. ghost

    ghost Member

    I have just noticed that on the Brunel Brass website, there are league tables for all the sections for the West of England area, and they are rather good. Shame that the region cannot provide such a service. Good service you provide you guys at Brunel - and good to see Paul Richards playing Sop with them!

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