3 year rolling average for sections- help!!!

Discussion in 'The Adjudicators' Comments' started by trumpetmanalex, Mar 13, 2011.

  1. trumpetmanalex

    trumpetmanalex New Member

    Hi can anyone explain to me hoe the 3 year rolling average works. The reason I ask is that our band is looking at going down this year mainly due to being a student band and as a result we couldn't compete 2 years ago because the areas we outside term time. We are a student band so most of us didn't have a home in the area at the time and we would have bankrupted us getting in enough ringers in.

    our most recent places were





    Specifically if a band comes up do they get mid table ranking or bottom, and if you can't compete do you get a last place or mid ranking.
  2. WoodenFlugel

    WoodenFlugel Moderator Staff Member

    Your average is based on your last 3 years' results. If you don't compete you get last place plus one position. If you get relegated / promoted you are given an average placing for the two years' previous to you being in the new section.

    Where it gets really interesting is how that average placing is worked out.... Rather stupidly (IMO) it seems to depend where in the country you happen to live.
  3. Paddy Flower

    Paddy Flower Active Member

    I'm assuming you are Uni of Warwick and you have my greatest sympathy. (If confirmed) your relegation shows how crazy the current system is.

    I've said before, 3 year rolling IS a good ides but it needs to be weighted. The Scottish system goes a little too far IMHO as usually it does nothing but promote the top-2 and relegate the bottom-2 from that year's contest, it's almost not worth bothering with the calculations they go to, so I think a 1-1-2 (rather than the 0.5-1-2 system they employ) is the way forward

    For the record the 'average mark' should stay and be based on the number of competing bands in any one year (as is currently used)
  4. FlugelD

    FlugelD Member

    In Scotland, the top two are promoted. End of. No averages. It's been that way for years....

    As for the weighting used, remember that this system has only been in place for a couple of years - maybe it needs fine-tuned, but at least it was an attempt to make the demotion process a bit fairer.
  5. trumpetmanalex

    trumpetmanalex New Member

    yes we are Warwick. It really does suck as the year we came 14th they were looking for old school bb styles which is really hard when your oldest member is 22.
    can anyone understand why you get so heavily penalised for a non entry or why its not based on the last 3 years of entry.
  6. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    Why such a "heavy" penalty? Well, suppose a band was completely out of their depth in a section - so much so that they considered that last place was a certainty. If a withdrawal wasn't an automatic last place (in a field including that withdrawn band) they could then derive an advantage from withdrawing, which would be ridiculous.

    I think you've got a very good chance of successfully appealing against relegation with that record - speak to your area committee quickly to find out how to do it. The fact that the missed year was due to the contest being scheduled in the holidays should speak strongly in your favour, as should your 4th place this year.

    Mind you, I seem to recall while playing for Warwick successfully turning out for a couple of National Finals, both of which were before the autumn term started... We did it on a week of intensive rehearsals, sharing people out amongst those band members that did have accommodation (i.e. everyone except the 1st years in halls). You could have attended the areas on a similar basis - or, easier, rehearsed the piece during term time, then arranged a couple of days of rehearsals to refresh the piece just prior to the contest. It wouldn't have been as impossible as you make out. And nor would have been whacking a bit of vib on it last year, come to that!

    Good luck with your appeal - definitely worth doing. And if it fails... Well, a happy year blitzing 4th section contests is quite an ego-boost ;-) 1997/98 was quite a fun adacemic year bandwise...
  7. Paddy Flower

    Paddy Flower Active Member

    I agree that it's a step in the right direction (Warwick would never have been relegated with a 4th place, but then again they would probably have found themselves in the 4th section this year anyway going on their result last year if not the year before).

    The point has been made on another thread that promoting the top-2 automatically has hampered things up their a bit, some bands getting promoted out of their depth, the quality of finalists being a bit disappointing too, but undoubtly it was a better move than doing nothing and sticking with the straight 3-year model.

    We'll get there eventually people :biggrin: Let's keep pushing at this door.
  8. trumpetmanalex

    trumpetmanalex New Member

    Dave the problem was that that year we were very fresh heavy (being one myself) and it was the first weekend after term finished and half the band had been signed up to tours with other societies before areas were announced. Plus it then ate into peoples revision time. But it's by the by now anyway I'm also kinda looking forward to going out and winning a few times. Do you go up if you win a section automatically or do you still have this rolling average thing (having just worked it out if we had won this year there was still a possibility we could have gone down).
    Final question would the appeal look favourably on us after we requested to stay down 3 years ago or will that just look like we already felt out of depth.
  9. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    The thing is that the 3-year average system is designed to reward consistency - but it's in the nature of student bands to have a far greater turnover of personnel than other bands - multiple generations of students come and go in the time it takes another band to change half of their players. And so it's completely reasonable to conclude that the result 2 years ago does not reflect the current band standard, and also reasonable to conclude that the appeal against promotion 3 years ago shouldn't have any bearing on an appeal against relegation this year. Btw, another argument in favour of an appeal is that next year you would drop your lowest mark, and so you would stand a very good chance of staying up then.

    Basically, if you appealed and weren't successful, I find it hard to see another circumstance in which an appeal would be successful. It seems pretty obviously reasonable to me.
  10. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    Its not rolling or an average, its simply 3 years' aggregate points.
    The reason bands that don't compete are given last plus 1 is because it would be totally unfair for them to do than the bands that actually turn up. Sadly in a section as big as yours, thats always going to be tough under the current system.

    Given your recent form and this weekend's result, its definitely worth appealing though. Good luck!
  11. trumpetmanalex

    trumpetmanalex New Member

    OK we'll give it a go thanks for the input.
    BTW keep your ears pinned back it's 15 years of brass soc next academic year and there's gonna be a a big old reunion I hear.
  12. MoominDave

    MoominDave Well-Known Member

    20 years, surely? Tim Stidwill founded it in 1992. Although it's 15 years of contesting for the brass band - Leamington 1997 was the first contest.
  13. Accidental

    Accidental Supporting Member

    sorry, meant do better...
  14. davidsait

    davidsait Member

    I doubt that an appeal would work, but I suppose it's worth a stab.

    I'm sure in the past we've celebrated the anniversary off the back of the 1992 formation. BTW - as I've mentioned before, us non-students need a bit more notice than you lot, so make sure you get us the date of the reunion soon please!
  15. trumpetmanalex

    trumpetmanalex New Member

    Just to let anyone who's following this know the appeal failed. booo
  16. That's sad. Given that most people quit playing either in their late teens or when families come along, we should do what we can as a movement to encourage people to stick at it through these two upheavals.

    student bands should be graded each autumn as their personell change so fast. Then the contest should be put in term time. if it's not in term time then they should be allowed to compete in a nearby region. such simple rules for uni brass bands could make a huge difference!

    rant over.